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Published: November 17, 2008
“Deafening silence of our elected officials”
Proposition 8 supporters want to know why politicians won’t speak out against violence
Santa Ana (CNA) -- On Friday, Nov. 14, leaders representing California’s Proposition 8 called on Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sen. Diane Feinstein and leaders of the ‘No on Proposition 8’ campaign to denounce attacks against citizens who support the constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.
Leaders of the ProtectMarriage.com coalition and approximately 500 supporters of “Yes on Proposition 8” gathered in Santa Ana to voice their opposition to the increasing attacks and harassment against supporters of traditional marriage.
 "Amidst all this lawlessness, harassment, trampling of civil rights and now domestic terrorism, one thing stands out: the deafening silence of our elected officials. Not a single elected leader has spoken out against what is happening,” noted the campaign co-manager, Frank Schubert.
“Where is Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger while churches are being attacked? And where is Senator Dianne Feinstein while people are losing their jobs and grandmothers are being bullied by an angry mob?" he continued.
Schubert spoke at the first press conference of the Protect Marriage coalition since the election, which saw Proposition 8 pass with 52.5% of the vote. Since then, hostility has dramatically increased against those who supported the measure.
"For 14 months, we have been called bigots and hate-mongers and we have not retaliated against these unprecedented attacks,” said another leader, Pastor Jim Garlow. “But we will not be silenced."
Around California, supporters of Prop. 8 have been targeted by their opponents. According to a press release, in addition to church vandalism across the state, in Sacramento, a musical theater director was forced to resign after he was blacklisted for contributing $1000 to the initiative. In Los Angeles, a Mexican restaurant owner has been boycotted after a relative donated to the coalition.
The most recent attack occurred Nov. 13 when the headquarters of the Knights of Columbus and several LDS temples were mailed an unknown white powder, reminiscent of the Anthrax scare in 2001.
The white powder was tested the following day and found to be non-toxic. The Associated Press reported that the FBI is investigating the white powder incidents because it is illegal to release a powder or substance to threaten, harm or scare the public.
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 12:08 AM By Charles O'Connell
The No on H8`ters (why are they so hateful? we're not) advertised a demonstration against Sacramento's Leatherby's Creamery (which donated $20,000 in defense of marriage, women and children). Dave Leatherby's many friends and acquaintances got advance word of the date & time. The place was jam-packed with the wonderful, ordinary people who love marriage, children & ice-cream. I'd bet that Leatherby's wish that they'd be boycotted every Sunday!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 4:38 AM By Fr. M.P.
We have the same situation here - homosexuals and supporters condone the violence because they want to force their ideology on us, and these politicians support the same unnatural ideology. Those that always voice "concern" when there is a report of a homosexual being attacked are silent here - a silent condoning. That is how evil-doers, those obstinately persisting in mortal sin, behave.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 4:58 AM By Grace
Welcome to the new fascism
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 5:21 AM By Mike Modanti
Following the election of Obama, Fr. Corapi predicted that America would be in ashes. Is the recent violence in California the beginning of the fulfillment of his warning?
The Gay agenda really amounts to homo-fascism. the militant Gays are a bunch of criminals and domestic terrorists who are trying to intimidate the rest the country. Their preaching about "hate speech" and "tolerance" is just a smoke screen. They are violent and their activities are un-American. They are anti-democracy and do not want to let the democratic process stand.
The public officials who have been silent in regards to the recent violence are complicit in these acts and should be impeached. Apparently they consider Christian Americans as second class citizens. What is the "Terminator" afraid of?
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 5:25 AM By St. Christopher
And, where are the Catholic bishops? These, like all politicians, are waiting to see which way the wind blows before stepping up and saying that such acts by the supporters of homosexual marriage are not only illegal, but immoral, as well. The good governor of CA has been a colossal disappointment to all conservatives, and to all voters who value honesty and fair dealing in government. The attacks will continue because the bishops, and elected members mentioned are simply in favor of the group accomplishing the deeds. They likely believe that history will support the homosexual rights folks and do not want to be shown as "bigots" by future historians.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:03 AM By Canisius
Is anyone really surprised in the alternative universe that is california. It is my hope and prayer that it will be the first target of Our Lord's Just Wrath...
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:04 AM By RayC55
Why the surprise? When have the politicians ever called crimes against the Church, people of religion a bias crime? Arnold is the "biggest" hypocrite I have ever had the misfortune of admiring. He's certainly a different person than the one who spoke at the Republican convention.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:32 AM By Hater Ski Ven
While I was watching Mike Huckabee's show, I heard about an incident where an elderly couple who placed Yes on Proposition 8 signs in their yard were beaten up. Is that all they can do, beat up on elderly people? That is so disgusting.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:34 AM By JLS
I recommend reading about the situation in which the Soviet Empire initiated its reign.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:43 AM By Maryanne Leonard
Now is the time to write a letter to the editor of your local newspaper protesting this assault on the democratic process, on our private citizens, our church community, and on the sensibilities of the majority. We have now spoken twice in the State of California in support of traditional marriage, i.e., between a man and a woman, and the bitter anger of the pro-gay minority has erupted in violence against old ladies, private individuals, and even interrupted quiet church worshippers, bursting into a church and stomping on the cross.
When do we start calling for this to stop? Our politicians are scared of losing the votes of the gays and their supporters. They need to start worrying about losing the confidence and support of the majority of us who obey the law, even when the democratic process ends in results we anguish over. The law must be obeyed, or we will lose our entire way of life. These people need to be arrested!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 6:46 AM By pita
Why do we wait and start praying only after these things happen?
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 7:43 AM By PATRICK
S O S
Sins Of Sodomits
Sick Of Sodomites
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 8:33 AM By ssoldie
If one is liberal, you get media coverage and protection, if one is conservative, you get no media coverage and no protection,so what else would you expect in such a liberal state as california, and from the 'civil' representives they elect.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 8:44 AM By Father John Peek
At least it can be seen what kind of enemy there is to the defenders of the rights of God. Christians should make up their minds to become more militant in prayer and in speaking out in defense of the cause of marriage and family and beware that the enemy is not just misguided but driven by the evil one.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 8:55 AM By Stephen
Outrageous, yes, but not surprising considering the times we live in. These so-called "champions" of freedom certainly seem to have a strange notion of it if thy can't even respect the most fundamental aspect of our democracy. Prop 8 was won fair and square.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 9:07 AM By Patrick
The officials are promoting rule of an unruly mob which is in the minority, against majority constitutional rule.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 9:33 AM By Maria C
I have no respect for Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, nor for the media. All these crimes are hate crimes. No matter what side they are from!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 9:40 AM By Shawna
The Prop 8 opponents who are being violent are only a small minority of the group. I would never act that way. But I believe that love will triumph over hate and eventually the majority will see that love has no boundaries. No more will certain types of love be told to sit at the back of the bus or not even be allowed on the bus at all.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 10:00 AM By Eileen
Proposition 8 supporters want to know why politicians won't speak out against violence? That's an easy one. They are just following the popular teaching example of deafening silence from the majority of Catholic Bishops.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 10:51 AM By Anita
It's very clear the 'good guys' are losing. At this point our goal has to be to save our soul and educate our children. We always know we have to defend our faith and it is not easy. It is an important part of our religion that we be willing to suffer. God knows who is on his side. The leaders of our church and our government are cowards. COWARDS!!! That's what the lefties are, lazy and cowardly. It is the easier, softer way. Personally, I just increase my prayer life and realize we have to suffer for Christ.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 11:11 AM By Grisha
A few comments: 1) Again I say to thee that the Palm Springs Police should have been at the rally and intervened BEFORE anyone ("US Out of North America NOW!" and the like) I don't think the PSPD is especially pro or anti Prop 8, they just don't handle a lot of these things 2) As near as I can tell, the Music Director's resignation was completely voluntary. I think he should have kept doing his job and dialoged with the artists who objected. If THEY wanted to quit in protest, THEY should have. 3) Bear in mind that in October the Yes on 8 Executive Committee sent a certified letter to Jim Abbot, a San Diego real estate broker
and very active Catholic who had contributed $10,000+ to No on 8 threatening to publish his contribution on their website with an aim towards hurting his business unless he donated an equal amount to them. They don't enter this argument with particularly clean hands. 4) I don't believe any house of worship should be picketed for any reason, however that's not what the Constitution says. 5) As for graffiti, hate crimes laws (objected to by some posters here) are there for a reason and would seem to apply to all the cases alluded to. 6) I expect the "pranksters" with the white powder will soon be scooped up by the FBI. Hopefully the courts will deal severely with them.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 11:36 AM By betty
Your message made me feel very sad, Eileen. I am fed up with Catholic bishops who look wide-eyed and say, But we might lose our state funding if we say anything. We can't take that risk." Can't they? I never know what to reply.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 12:32 PM By Eileen
Betty, Please don't be sad. Do you see how the laity is being confused? The risk is not about state funding. Better to lose all state funding than have false shepherds lead one single soul to hell. Going to hell is the risk that we can't take. We are the Catholic Church, not the "Let's Barter Truth For Bucks Club." The second that all of money that is being worshiped goes out the door, the Holy Spirit will be allowed back in. State Funding is the new excuse for hanging a "Keep Out" sign to God in His Own House! A poorer Church, a smaller Church, but a Holy Church!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 1:00 PM By Eileen
Shawna, It is obvious that you think you are being loving but you are in reality, even if through misguidance or ignorance, harming the souls of people who have same sex attraction. You are crying tears of joy over Obama being elected. You repeat false comparisons about equal rights on a bus. What "love" was told to sit at the back of a bus? Same sex love? Rosa Parks was allowed to ride the bus and she "WAS" discriminated because of her "color", not her behavior choices. If you truly want love to triumph Shawna, it can't begin with a false foundation. God does not lie. Homosexual acts and same sex marriage are evil and offensive to God. God has already Triumphed Shawna. Stop lying to yourself by thinking you have a better plan than God.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 1:19 PM By Harry
The present turmoil underscores a very important point. The gay marriage proponents, like their Marxist spiritual ancestors, are quite willing to use violence to achieve their anarchist sexual Utopia. Further, they will plead for tolerance and understanding to silence the opposition. Their media allies then hold the pro-marriage people to that high standard preached by the gays, while ignoring their violent
and anti-social behavior.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 1:26 PM By Elizabeth
Everyone in California.............
Call the Goverenor's office in Sacramento and Senator Feinstein's office in Washington D.C.
That's just what I did this morning....
They need to be swamped with calls!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 2:15 PM By Rick DeLano
The stupendous, wonderful, miraculous and immensely prophetic victory of Proposition 8 represents the most terrifying political earthquake in years for the antichrist culture of death and its advocates.
I was at the press conference, I was on the streets afterward and endured the antichrist hatred of the "tolerant" No on 8 crowd.
We have won a magnificent victory.
Let us now take this victory and its lessons into the sad, beaten-down Republivcan Party and reclaim it from Scwarzenneger, McCain, and similar hacks.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 2:41 PM By Shawna
Eileen, I do not have a better plan than God. God's plan is love, as it says in 1 John 4:16 -- "God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him." and verse 18 -- "There is no fear in love but perfect love drives out fear." Eileen, God's plan is love, so no love is outlawed by God and no love should be outlawed by society. All love is freedom in God's plan. Perfect love drives out fear. I have to ask, what do some people fear about the love of others? THey must not have perfect love, otherwise they wouldn't fear. All love is from God, God is love, and no love should be denied in the law. All love rides on the bus to heaven eaqually. THat's okay, Eileen, society has already mostly caught up to understanding what it means to say that God is love -- it only took over 2,000 years -- and maybe the church will catch up to what God meant soon.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 3:52 PM By Mildred
When I hear these stories, I rejoice! Blessed are the persecuted, and bless those who persecute you. Persecution is part of God's plan. Glory be to God!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 5:07 PM By MarkF
While I agree with the majority of sentiment here, it is Elizabeth who has the best solution - contact your local politicians. Let me offer one word of advice - don't call them. Write an old-fashioned letter to them. They count each letter much, much more important that a phone call or an e-mail. Believe me on this one, I live in the Washington, DC area. And even better idea is to get five or ten of your friends to write to their representatives. These people are always running for the next election and they do pay attention.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 5:13 PM By Synaxarion
In response to St. Christopher: To take the spectacle--predictable enough--of rancorous crowds taking to the streets as an occasion to blame the Catholic bishops for the situation is symptomatic of a quite different kind of rancor, but rancor nonetheless. To claim, furthermore, that the bishops are "in favor" of these crowds because "history" is on their side, is a grievous--amd double--falsehood. Why your venom, St. C?
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 7:38 PM By Charles O'Connell
Rick DeLano, you've got it! We have nothing to fear. God has already won, He's just holding back to see who really loves Him. Envision Nietzsche's tomb with a Christmas angel, banner unfurled: God Isn't Dead, HE isn't even tired. God, infinitely happy within Himself in the Divine Circumsession of the Holy Trinity (Ho Hagios Perichoresis), has the primary job of being Himself, "running the world is just His hobby" (Frank Sheed). He is trying to convey His divinity to us, His children, as much as possible, but it requires that we be tested. We have merely to keep our heads down, cultivate the virtue of joy, and endure to the end. This world is passing away. May more of the 'No on H8te`ers' be converted and saved, thus proving the infinite power of His mercy and justice! Jesus Christ Has Risen, Alleluia!
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 8:03 PM By cjo
For those of you who would like to share your concerns on the Prop 8 issue with our pro abort "Catholic" Governor, who is apparently gets a "pass" from our LA Cardinal, Arnold can be reached at 916 445 2841 or 213 897 0322 in L.A. Sen Feinstein can be reached at 202 224 3841 or 310 914 7300 in LA.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 8:30 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
RayC55,
Are you that naive when it comes to partisan politics? The Arnold Schwartzeneger that spoke at the Republican convention is and will always be a very liberal Republicrat, former semi porn movie actor! As a former Republican Congressional Nominee, four term Elected Member of Orange County Republican Central Committee, past President of Anaheim Republican Assembly, etc. etc. I am dismayed at your "He's certainly a different person than the one who spoke at the Republican convention". Did you ever support this jerk?
If you did, you can probably take some of the blame for the election of Barak Obama!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 10:06 PM By Dan
"THat's okay, Eileen, society has already mostly caught up to understanding what it means to say that God is love -- it only took over 2,000 years -- and maybe the church will catch up to what God meant soon." That's a very interesting point of view, Shawna. Until the homosexual rights movement came along, we didn't understand I John -- not the doctors of the Church, not its popes or every day saints, -- just a collection of people having this in common-- a psycho-sexual disorder manifesting in morally repugnant acts. Did you say you went through RCIA two years ago?
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Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 10:11 PM By Eileen.
Shawna, You have interpreted the Bible to fit your defense of a particular sin. This is a common trick that people who are lost, play on themselves and others. Shawna your interpretations are false and illogical. Charlie Manson loved his Manson family girls and they loved him back. Charlie Manson called this love too. Was that perfect love because they called it love? You say that no love should be outlawed by society. Should pedophiles who say they love children and they only want the children to love them back have that freedom you talk about? How about family members who love one another and there is incest? What if everyone is OK with this in the family, is that perfect love too? You say, "that's OK, society has already mostly caught up (in sin I might add) to understanding what it means to say that God is love." ....Shawna, it is one thing to struggle with same sex attraction but it is very serious that you are misinterpreting the Word of God to promote sin. That is not loving God Shawna, that is playing God. Shawna, if you are that hell bent on disobeying God, don't confuse or influence others to offend God along with you. You will be held accountable for every single soul you caused to rebel against Almighty God. Loving God means obeying God. Shawna, I have no right to legislate your approval of my beliefs or actions. You have no right to demand laws that force anyone's approval of your beliefs or behaviors. Out of love, we are supposed to help you to not offend God. Love the sinner without approving or defending the sinful behavior.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:12 AM By JLS
Shawna quotes the Bible, then immediately without pause refers to "love" as a thing. Shawna, you do not seem to have a clue to the meaning of love.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:46 AM By Fr. M.P.
Shawna, is your definition of love that God allows a person to do whatever the person wants to do? Is your definition of freedom anything goes as long as one says it feels right?
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:08 AM By Barb
We were told by Christ that there will come a time when people would call evil good and good evil. We cannot expect better treatment from the enemy than Our Lord did.
Be of good cheer though, great graces are won by those who suffer faithfully even unto death. It is our turn to experience the passion up close and personal. Let us do so in the best way possible. Pray for the conversion of sinners.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:07 AM By Grisha
Hi All: I opined above that the Palm Springs Police didn't handle the situation well and SFPD would have prevented it getting physical. Hey - check out Michelle Malian's site. She has a video of a group of pro Prop. 8 demonstrators walking through the Castro expertly protected by SFPD officers. Given the Department's demographics it's likely many of the cops were Irish Catholics, that some were gay and that they had voted both for and against Prop. 8. The bottom line is that equal protection means that society needs to protect currently unpopular opinions without fear or favor.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 1:34 PM By Shawna
Eileen, I really wish you would have the benefit of a good RCIA program. You are the one twisting god's word to defend a particular sin: the sin of HATE! I quoted to you where it says that God is love. Jesus says often to his disciplse that they should love one another. Love is the center of the gospel, which you do not seem to understand. God is love, love is good. ALL love is good. ALL ARE WELCOME, even haters are welcome because we will love you until you change to let go of hate and become loving like God is loving. Amen I say to you, if you have ears you should hear this. God's word is multi-meaningful and you will not understand it's depth and riches if you are not of the spirit like PAul said to be. Some people in the church, the haters, are still being nourished with milk because they cannot handle the solid food of the true meaning of the gospel of god's love. When they mature they will be ready for the solid food and will realize that all love is of God and all are welcome into the family of God. We will join the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier in loving each other and being loved, with no one excluded. Even the angels will join in the love! All the cosmos, heaven and earth, God him/herself loving all that he/she has made and being loved back. But hate will be excluded in heaven, which is why haters should change their ways before they die. And we will change you with our love if you are open to it. Why be so closed minded? The future is about love and openness.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:17 PM By JPeterman
Grace, everything old is new again. This "new fascism" is nothing more than a repeat of Hitler's brown shirts who brought Hitler to power but then surprise, Hitler had them killed.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:18 PM By Eileen
Shawna, Thank you for admitting that you received your courses of confusion in a RCIA class. I do appreciate your honesty about it. They used to at least, try to hide it but now sin and confusion are the new banners and butterflies of goofy RCIA programs. Let's all show love and cheer for the Baltimore Catechism!
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 4:25 PM By JLS
Grisha, the hate 8 rabble is picking their battles.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:24 PM By Shawna
Fr. M.P., thank you for your question. Love means accepting and loving other people for who they are as God's children created in the image of God, all equal dignity, not rejecting or hating them. God gave us a conscinece to freely choose to love. As you well know, the church teaches that we must never go against our conscience. If I hate, I go against my conscience which tells me to love, so I love as god loves, which is to love everyone equally and accept them as they have been created.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:53 PM By Anne T.
Shawna, what RCIA class are you recommending. Surely, you cannot be serious. Romans 1:24 in the Ignatius Study Bible, Ignatius Press being one of the Holy Father's (the Pope's) preferred presses, says this: "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for the unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passions for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." The notes for that passage say this: "God does not hold back his judgment on sin until the end of history but manifests it throughout history as well (Ps 81:12; Acts 7:42) One severe form of judgement is for God to allow recalcitrant sinners to contine in their sin. The graces that would have moved sinners to repentance have been rejected. As a consequence, a dulled moral sense and intense, disordered desires are forms of punishment that such hardened sinners often experience when they revel in their sin. Paul sees this sort of punishment at work among the Gentiles, whom God has handed over to a thousand obscenitites and sins against nature because they would not acknowledge him or his truth. In effect, God says to them, 'Have it your way.' " I will add, in other words, God gives up on them, and they suffer the consequences of their own actions. The God you are worshipping, Shawna, is not the God of the Bible, but your own twisted version of God.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 6:36 PM By JLS
Anne T., your post is amazing; you've put it all together as well as it could be done.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:01 PM By MarkF
Shawna, would you be willing to tell us publicly that name of the RCIA class that you attended so that we can go there to get the true knowledge? Lets start with Mark 7. What does the word fornication mean in the sense of the Bible? Does Jesus mean here all sex outside of marriage? If not, what does he mean here? Why does Jesus tell the woman taken in adultery in John 8 to "go and do not sin again?" If as you falsely claim that Jesus wants us to be "accepting and loving other people for who they are", then why does the word "repent" appear in the New Testament over two dozens times? If as you say we are all OK as we are NOW, they why do we have to repent? If Jesus accepts everyone as they are, then why was he so hard on the money changers in the temple? Also, do you know that the language that you've used here for the trinity - "Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier" was banned by the the Pope and that baptisms performed under these titles are invalid? You're free to use them all you want. You're not free to say that this is Catholic thinking. Finally, do you know of the idea of the infallibility of the Church? Do you know that when there is a consistent teaching in matters of faith and morals through the centuries that that belief is said to be infallibly known? Since the Church since apostolic times has said that homosexual acts are sin, we know that teaching to be infallible. Do you know that the Church considers them to be sins? If so, do you believe that to be the truth? If you believe that they are not sins, then how can you say you're faithful to the Church? Or do you reject the whole idea of infallibility of the magisterium? I am very serious about these questions because I'd like to hear your answer to them, and not some speech to the effect that anyone who disagrees with you is a "hater."
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 7:22 PM By MarkF
Shawna, let me try this from a different side. A Catholic belief is that since the time of Jesus, he gave us what we need to know in order to achieve salvation. The truth has been made known to man in the form of his Church and it cannot be destroyed, because if it were destroyed, then we would not have a chance of salvation. This may even be a Protestant idea but I’m not sure. For the incorruptibility of the Church’s teaching, we cite Mattew 16:18, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.” For the visibility of his teaching on earth we cite Matthew 5:14, "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.” Now given this, and given how you said “But hate will be excluded in heaven, which is why haters should change their ways before they die”, how is it that the Church has taught since its inception that homosexual acts are sinful? Lets go through this slowly. Do you agree that the Church has always taught that homosexual acts are sins throughout history? I will assume that you do and won’t cite any Church fathers or saints. Now that leaves us in a dilemma. If as you say that unless we accept homosexuality we are denied salvation, then how did people get to heaven before this generation when a few theologians have (incorrectly) accepted it? Are you saying that all the Church fathers and saints before us, and all the rest of the faithful are doomed to hell because they did not accept homosexuality? If so, then how is it that Jesus founded a Church in the 1st century that gives all we need for salvation? If the true teaching of Jesus has just been discovered now, as you claim, then how has the Church been that city on a hill and the light of the world?
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:04 PM By Ryan
"Do you agree that the Church has always taught that homosexual acts are sins throughout history?" Who could know? Who has access to everything the Church has taught in all of history? Access to everything the Church has ever taught on the subject would be required to answer the question. At best, one could only guess at such an answer. Who has been everywhere at all times to answer that? It defies common sense to believe there haven't always been those who've said it's ok and those who said it's not ok.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:16 PM By Ryan
Don't know how true this is, but according to DignityUSA, "Although one could find some opposing voice in every century, there was no common opposition to homosexuality in Christian Europe until the late 12th century except for a period around the collapse of the Roman Empire. Indeed, for nearly two centuries after Christianity had become the state religion, Christian emperors in Eastern cities not only tolerated but actually taxed gay prostitution. In 7th century Visigoth Spain, a series of six national church councils refused to support the ruler's legislation against homogenital acts. By the 9th century almost every area in Christian Europe had local law codes, including detailed sections on sexual offenses; none outside of Spain forbade homogenital acts. By the High Middle Ages, a gay subculture thrived, as in Greco-Roman times. A body of gay literature was standard discussion material at courses in the medieval universities where clerics were educated."
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:31 PM By Shawna
Anne T and MarkF, you are knowledgable about the faith. WHat I have read is that most english translations of the bible have mistranslated a certain greek word as "homosexual" when something else was meant entirely. Paul did not have an understanding of sexual orientation like we do today, so he could not have had an understanding of that kind of love. Nor could anyone else before this century have understood it, which is why the church taught against it. Paul was writing against temple prostitution. The church can grow with the times. Like charging interest on loans, which used to also be condemned by the church but is no longer after the science of money was better understood. Like believing that the earth goes round the sun, which was condemned by the church but is no longer after the science of planets was better understood. Like burning heretics and witches which is no longer done after the new teaching about freedom of conscience. Like teaching before that nobody outside the church can be saved, which is no longer held because the bishops now teach that good people in other religions can go to heaven. We understand new things that make us adapt the faith. Now that we since the 20th century understand the science of human sexuality and orientation better than anyone before us, the church can change there too. Progress. Growth. Evolution. Reading the signs of the times. Being relevant to each generation. Proclaiming the message of Christ to each new generation and every culture. Faith and reason. And now MarkF has told us that the pope no longer teaches that God is creator, that Jesus is redeemer, that the spirit is sanctifier. I didn't know that. But see: new things can be taught. The bible clearly states that God is the creator and that Jesus is the redeemer of humankind and that the spirit sanctifies us, but if the pope said no we don't believe that anymore then okay. It shows not everything is set in stone: God writes a new covenant on our hearts not stone.
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Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 10:34 PM By The other Mike
Governor Schwarzenegger and Senator Feinstein are in the back pocket of the deep pocket homosexual lobby. Don't expect any positive action from those two.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:41 AM By Fr. M.P.
Shawna, so then your definition of love includes accepting any type of behavior that they choose to do? Example: do parents love their children if they let them run freely in the busy street? Do parents love their children if they freely let them do drugs? Is it "anti-love" if the parents say no and restrict that behavior? Why or why not? And what is your responsibility in regard to forming your conscience? Does it have to be conformed to anything, or is it just whatever you feel like? If someone said "God created me to steal" then would your conscience say stealing is OK?
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:58 AM By JLS
Shawna, you're fiddling with trivial details, and ignoring common sense.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:50 AM By MarkF
As far as Dignity, this is not a group that is in communion with the Church. They cannot legally meet in a parish or use Church property. But in fairness I will talk about what you say they write. I haven’t looked into their charges, but I have looked at in detail at what I assume is a similar group – the pro-abortion Catholics for Choice. This is the group whose teachings have lead to the ruin of many souls, and whose teachings when parroted by Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden got them publically criticized by many bishops. Their methods seem similar and the tactic is to confuse the issue. They claim there is no consensus “except for a period around the collapse of the Roman Empire.” That’s called the Patristic period and means ALL the Church fathers and councils agreed on this. Given that I can spare everyone the need to quote St. Barnabas, the Didache, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine, etc.. Just notice how easily they brush off the Fathers of our faith though. All the rest cited by Dignity – even if they are true, which I doubt given the source - are political laws by local authorities, not statements by the Church itself in the form of Church councils, Church fathers and saints. This is what I mean by confusing the issue, how they compare local politicians and an alleged “gay subculture” with scripture, Church fathers, doctors, councils and the saints as if they are equal. Notice that Dignity does not cite any universal councils, Church fathers or doctors or saints. There is a consensus of those in favor of homosexual acts being sinful.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:31 AM By MarkF
Having laid out the larger picture I’ll look at the specifics of what you’ve said. You say that the Greek word that St. Paul used did not mean homosexuals, that it was mistranslated. That view is not consistent with the rest of scripture, where all interpretations have to be consistent with scripture. The consistent view of scripture is that all sex outside of marriage is fornication. You’re going to have to show us a place in scripture where that is different if you can. You said that Romans 1 is about temple prostitution not homosexuality in general. Read it again. It is about homosexuality (like all sin) being a pagan god. All sin is worshipping the wrong god; that’s a consistent view throughout the Bible. St. Paul never once talks about the prostitutes of the temples. He does liken all sin to idolatry in Col 3:5. You talk about the Church changing with regard to loans, the view of the solar system and burning of heretics. None of these things are key to salvation. The infallibility of the Church is only in matters of faith and morals. We don’t need to know if the sun goes around the earth in order to achieve salvation. We do need to know what behavior is a sin and what is not. You talk a lot about the “progress” of our times. This is a time when we’ve killed fifty million souls in this country alone through abortion, and a time where we’ve killed over 100 million in war. Truly on all counts we are living in the Dark Ages here. Even if that were not the case, what you’re teaching about homosexuality is contrary to what is in scripture and what was agreed upon by the Church fathers, councils, doctors and saints. Lets set aside scripture. Can you show us one Church father, doctor, council or saint who says that homosexual acts are not a sin? Overall what I am getting at here is a method – the Catholic method – for knowing the truth, and that is consensus among scripture, fathers, councils, doctors and saints.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:41 AM By JFK
Shawna, if you cannot see that Homosexuality is offensive to God and his design throught the writings left by the opostles themselves, then look at the physical punishment that God has sent to those who disobey him. VD and Aids. It is well known that heterosexual couples that have not had multiple partners are safe from these deseases and can go through married life without protection or fear of contracting these deseases. On the other hand, permiscuous persons and those who practice homosexual acts are in great danger of all these deseases that God has sent as a punishement for there perversion of nature. Even the almighty condom can't stop God!
I must also mention that the usage of discimination against Homosexuals is the same as discrimination against those of color is rediculous!! God made those people of color and there is no sin in color! It was VERY wrong to think they are anything less then anyone else and that was TRUE discrimination! Homosexuals choose the behavior, they are not born with it and so was not made by God but developed by the Devil! The Bible has many examples of the evils of homosexuality, you CHOOSE to ignor them!
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:30 AM By Candice
JFK, the vast majority of homosexuals do not have AIDS. As to VD, the majority of people on the planet, homosexual and heterosexual, including many people who've had only one partner their whole life, have or have had some form of VD. Homosexual persons can also go through life without VD or AIDS. There may be many people who are "born homosexual" like people are born of color. And there may be many who suffer from same sex attraction through no choice of their own, again like color. We simply don't know the genesis in every person. Same sex attraction is itself not a sin. You don't have to be gay to choose your behavior. People of color can choose their behavior too. And so can you. You can choose to ignore the truth and spread the disease of misinformation.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 10:56 AM By Candice
MarkF, what "group" is in communion with the Church? Is the group of people who post on this forum in communion with the Church? Groups don't walk up to the altar. Individual people do.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:09 AM By MarkF
Shawna, you’re also not right when you say that the Church used to believe that “nobody outside the church can be saved, which is no longer held because the bishops now teach that good people in other religions can go to heaven.” The Church has not changed her view that all salvation come from Christ through his holy Church. Take a look at paragraph 846 of the catechism. It makes all of this clear. To us who know the Church, we are bound to follow her and to be formed by her. What about the non-Christian world? Paragraph 848 - "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." This is pretty tricky stuff. It’s not that all roads lead to God. Not at all. We still believe that it is only by the cross of Christ that anyone comes to know God. But, as the catechism says, “in ways known to himself God” and not to us, his grace can work on earth through the Church. This is no change at all from what was believed (at least) in the 13th century. Dante in his Paradiso, in the cantos on the heaven of Jupiter talks exactly about this problem. He’s first told that it is only by the cross of Jesus that anyone comes to heaven and then is shown the souls of the Roman Emperor Trajan and the pagan Trojan Rapheus. He’s told there is no contradiction there, just that God’s ways are so much above ours. The big point here is the being good is not the way to salvation; we don’t earn it. It is by the grace of our Lord Jesus to know him, believe in him and conform our life to him, whether a person is Christian or not. And the other point is that you’ve used your confusion on this matter to further the confusion about the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. There is no confusion, there is consensus that the acts are a sin.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:37 AM By MarkF
Candice, if you mean the group Dignity, I don't know exactly what word to use, but I know they are not part of the Catholic Church in the same way that the Knights of Columbus are or the Legion of Mary is. Dignity cannot use Church property, nor are they allowed to advertise in Catholic newspapers or recruit in our churches. If the word communion is wrong, which I am not sure about really, then I apologize. My point is clear that the homosexual group Dignity is in conflict with the Church. What is your point? Do you think that they are not in conflict with the Church? Or do you think that they are allowed to meet in parishes and have the same status as the Knights of Columbus?
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:36 PM By Dai Yoshida
Candice: You obviously don't know what "in communion with" means. How can you possibly hold an intelligent conversation if you make no attempt to understand the vocabulary? There are many advocate of homosexuality posting in this forum. Many of them are civil and manage to avoid embarrassing themselves. I suggest you learn from them. Also, remember that you are posting in a Catholic forum. At the very minimum, respect our priests and be obedient to the teachings of the Holy Father.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:40 PM By JLS
* The Church has not changed her view that all salvation come from Christ through his holy Church.*: That is one excellent way to say it, MarkF.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:53 PM By Candice
MarkF, Protestants, Mormons, atheists, etc. -- even the Knights of Columbus -- as groups can also be "in conflict with the Church", but they can still have many worthwhile things to say or do. As to "leading to the ruin of many souls", what group is immune from that? Is the group of posters on this forum immune from that? How about yourself; are you immune from that?
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:56 PM By Anne T.
Shawna, you are only deceiving yourself. If you do not believe Paul and the rest of the Bible about homosexuality, then why do you believe anything in the Bible on moral issues? Everyone has temptations of some sort. Many children "played doctor" when they were young with both boys and girls, yet grew up when they were older to have normal heterosexual marriages. They realized such abnormal behavior, same-sex behavior, was wrong. Others got addicted to it.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:31 PM By I.S.
Some psychological tests have shown differences between men and women in the extent to which they employ the brain’s hemispheres in verbal tasks. Other research has hinted that homosexuals may exhibit the tendencies of the opposite sex in brain behavior unrelated to sexual activity.
Ivanka Savic and Per Lindström, of the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, now report that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women are slightly asymmetric—the right hemisphere is larger than the left—and the brains of gay men and straight women are not.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:45 PM By Candice
Dai Yoshida, I never claimed to know anything. I asked simple civil questions. I don't claim any special knowledge. If you have issues with what I write, here's a handy teaching that I follow: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it." My question remains: What "group" is in communion with the Church? For example, if there is a single member of the Knights of Columbus who is not in communion with the Church, is the Knights of Columbus in communion with the Church? Do you believe the Knights of Columbus has a communion with the Church apart from its individual members?
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:49 PM By MarkF
Candice, well sort of. I see what you're saying that all groups are made up of people and that as such, all groups have good and bad members and some positive things to say. Yes, but that can be taken to the point of absurdity. I spent a lot of time back in October doing research into what the group Catholics of Choice puts out. And I can say that that group's website and other materials do a lot of harm to the faithful. In particular, if you've read any of their material you can see that both Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are both just reciting what they've learned from Catholics for Choice. When Biden repeated these things, his home town of Scranton's bishop banned him from communion until he recants. Speaker Pelosi is going through the same process right now. Biden is, I believe, also under a similar investigation in Delaware. The archbishop of Washington, DC where both live has also condemned the false teachings that they both got from Catholics for Choice. At the same time I was researching them, I came across of friend who was also taking his cues from them. So a group like Catholics for Choice is leading to the harm - denial of communion - for two prominent people, while the rest of the community is lead astray. The pro-homosexual group Dignity has been banned from meeting in our parishes, and is also leading many astray from the Church and into sin. I'd say that both qualify as ruining souls. While there may be some bad members of the Knights of Columbus or the Legion of Mary, to compare them to these others groups is to argue to the point of absurdity.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:48 PM By JLS
Candice, even better advice on how to interpret what is said by anyone comes from St John in his Apocaplypse, which is that when the going gets difficult to comprehend, then we are to pull out all the stops of discerning the truth. Your political correctness thing is good up to a point, but beyond that, such as with this issue which is a grave attack on the Church, there is certainly leave for the Catholic to employ any means possible to drive for the truth, and to stand for the Church, political correctness be damned.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:53 PM By JLS
I.S., anything coming from Sweden is absurd, as they have justified sex with animals. There may be genetic bases for some homosexual tendencies, but such a thing does not justify homosexual behavior ... nothing does. Any disordered genetic condition is the consequence of sin, and justice demands that resultant temptations be resisted. The implied concept of love in your post involves only the romantic type of love bandied about so indiscriminantly for three centuries in the western world. It is a fad, and has no more authority than passing sentiments.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:09 PM By Candice
MarkF, that's ok. I'm not comparing groups, just contrasting individual with group. The bishop from Scranton you've mentioned did a similar thing when he said, "The USCCB doesn't speak for me." That was pretty extreme, and true.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:16 PM By Candice
JLS, glad to hear you have even better advice than the Church's own teaching. Maybe the Church is just too "politcally correct" for you. What's it like to be so wise?
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:39 PM By Grisha
JLS - You don't believe in courtly love? You must not be Irish. For us, it is a requirement.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM By Trinity 3
These posts are very much enjoyable! It is wonderful to read posts from good Catholics (I can clearly see who are faithful because of their loyalty to Christ's church and teachings) responding and help show the error of some posts here. Keep it up and keep speaking truth in Christ.
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:23 PM By MarkF
Candice, if you want to harp on about the word "communion" that's fine, but to what end? I believe that I've heard that word applied to groups. If I'm wrong in that, well so be it. Groups like Catholics for Choice, Dignity or Call To Action are more than just an assortment of individuals. These groups are organized to teach dissent and pass it off as being Catholic. Whatever word you want to use, the intention of these groups is not to support the Church but to destroy it from within. You and I have some basic differences and the largest of them is that I have the Catholic belief that the truth is known by us through the Church in matters of faith and morality. These groups represent differences with that truth, and as much as they are within the Church they are then subject to Church discipline - denial of communion and excommunication. It is for the Church leaders to deal with them, not me. I hear what you're saying about listening to others, and certainly the old adage is true, "Win an argument, lose a soul." I have many friends who are still active homosexuals, which is my former way of life. I am bound to tell them of the changes that I've made. I don't have the secular and liberal Protestant belief that there is no truth, or that everyone has their own truth. As far as homosexuality goes, I know that it's wrong and bad for us. But I try to talk to them with reason and to listen to where they are at. Some are totally poisoned by the lie that is homosexuality. Some have doubts about it. Cardinal Ratzinger wrote a book called "Truth and Tolerance" that I would strongly recommend to all Catholics. He talks about how the secular relativism, which poses as "tolerance" poses the biggest threat to Christian truth. This relativism is its own form of absolutism, i.e., if you don’t agree with their world view that there is no truth and very little that is right or wrong, you’re declared to be a “hater.” Again, it’s called “Truth and Tolerance.”
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Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:18 PM By MarkF
Candice, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If so, I'm sorry. I thought you were supporting groups like Catholics for Choice and Dignity. Was there a specific case or person that you were thinking of that prompted your comments? As far as the USCCB group and any individual bishop who is a member of that, there is a big difference between that group and a group like Catholics for Choice or the Legion or Mary even. The only thing that the bishops have that unites them is that they are all bishops. They have to join it pretty much. Their agenda changes based on who is in the majority. The lay groups I cited all have a constant agenda and charter - Catholics for Choice is all about abortion, the Legion of Mary is about evangelization and devotion to Mary. An individual joins a group like that with a specific goal in mind and that goal it to partake in the group's goal. What you said reminds of me of how the bishops approved that bogus translation of the creed that starts off with "We believe..." when it really is "I believe..."
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:01 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Catholics for Choice (the choice is the killing of innocent unborns) are funded by such wonderful people as Hugh Hefner, the Rockefellers, etc. etc. ad nauseam.
The sophistries I hear from some on this blog reminds me of a scriptural passage. I can't remember the actual passage number but here it is: "there are none so blind as those who have eyes but will not see, and there are none so deaf as those who have ears but will not hear!"
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:13 AM By JLS
Grisha, only part of my heart was Irish, and that part was absconded with a few decades ago. But I always credit the "Irish eyes" that are upon me, well at least they were for quite a while.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:19 AM By JLS
Candice, I would not wish wisdom upon you. I don't think you could handle it, for when you're presented with it, you mock it. You claim to be simply asking questions, but you are doing it in a sly manner. Foxes are not wise but only sly. You are trying to gain a hold on groups, but there is wisdom in keeping the fox out of the hen house.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:23 AM By JLS
Grisha, I can't escape your question about courtly love. But to refresh my memory of it, first I'll have to dig through all the pots and pans on the front burners, so's I can see where I left it on the back burner.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 10:28 AM By Amy
A Christian life is one of constant injustice. We have to face injustice everyday, in every generation. Christ's entire life was spent dealing with injustice. When we suffer spiritual attack and injustice, we know that we are seaking after God's will. There is nothing like a little spiritual warfare to let us know we are on the right path. How do we deal with it? Turn your eyes to Heaven and realize you home is there. Dont sink to the hate and evils, rise to the highest heights. Pray for conversion, God's will be done, and peace.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:49 PM By MarkF
JLS, I am not so sure about Candice's motives. First I had my suspicions as to what was her goal, but now I'm not so sure. I think she may have been just distinguishing between the individual and a group. That's why I said I was sorry above.
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:21 PM By Mark from PA
Catholics for Choice is funded by Hugh Hefner and the Rockefellers? Perhaps they should rename it "Rich People for Choice." Do any Catholics fund this group or is it just a front? Are the people in this group actually practicing Catholics?
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Posted Thursday, November 20, 2008 9:35 PM By JLS
PA, CFFC is not Catholic, at least according to the Church. I do not recall the exact bishop or conference of bishops perhaps, but that organization was defined by the Church as not being Catholic. Now, this would be a great place, PA, for you to start your research on what the Church teaches.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 5:38 AM By Fr. M.P.
Shawna, where are your answers to your definitions of love? We await your wisdom. *** Candice, no one is immune from sin. Therefore the difference is deliberate rejection of God's Truth as taught by His Church, and sinning out of weakness. So the answer to your question depends on their approach to God's Truth. Catholics for Choice deliberately fights against God's Truth, ergo they are inherently evil because of their very intent. Anyone who joins that group joins the evil intent and is condoning murder, and is therefore guilty of the same mortal sin. KofC, with all it's sinning members, does not deliberately go against Church teachings as an organization, although some individuals within it do. (Kenneth F will have info on that). We are all judged individually, so group membership makes no difference on judgment day. What matters is personal holiness, or lack thereof. One unrepented mortal sin on judgment day - only one - has the soul choosing hell for all eternity. Sobering for sure.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 2:25 PM By MarkF
Fr. M.P., thank you so much for what you said about this matter of conscience. This fits in with everything that I've heard about voting, etc. So if I join Catholics for Choice with the intent to subvert them and bring them back to the Church's teaching on life that would not be a sin. But if I came on this site with the intention of spreading confusion that would be a sin. But what about people whose consciences are not fully formed? What if they are in conflict with the Church but think that they are not? As far as I go I guess I'd say what JLS said about not being slothful with regard to matters of conscience. As a priest you must see this all the time - Catholics who know so little about the faith. You know, we don't just need more priests, we need more nuns to teach in our schools. Lay teachers on average are not going to have the same character as well formed nuns. When I was a kid we had eight nuns and one lay teacher. Now that same school has no nuns.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 3:54 PM By Mark from PA
You sound like me Mark F. I had mostly nuns for all grades except for 3rd and 12th grades. We had priests for Religion too. My high school was excellent but I think the religion program was somewhat week. In 9th and 10th grades we had a weekly magazine. In 12th grade the priest just visited with the kids he liked and didn't teach, we never even opened the book. The class was a waste. It would have been nice to hear about Christ.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 4:05 PM By Mark from PA
The Catholics for Choice organization is still confusing to me. Why would Catholics want to support and encourage abortion?
Editor's Note: Because they are not Catholics! In 2000, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement saying the group “is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church.” Catholics for Choice, said the bishops, is “an arm of the abortion lobby in the United States and throughout the world.”
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 6:08 PM By Mark from PA
Editors, if that is true it angers me. To have a group of people who are mostly not Catholic to put Catholic in the title of their organization and to act as an arm of the abortion lobby is an absolute outrage.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 6:52 PM By RR
Mark from PA: You said, " Why would Catholics want to support and encourage abortion?" You should know. You did too by voting for the Obamanation. You acted as an arm for the abortionists when you voted for the Obamanation.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 7:04 PM By Fr. M.P.
MarkF, you should not join Catholics for Choice at all. Even if you have the right intention, the scandal that it causes is bad too. In the case of that organization, then everyone should know about the evil of abortion, so there is no practical excuse of the ignorance if bliss type. God alleviates due punishment when understanding is lacking and there is no negligence in learning about the situation. Note that a sin cannot be mortal without understanding and consent of the will (and be grave matter). For example, voting without informing yourself is negligence. That's right - you cannot be slothful about informing your conscience according to the Church teachings. There are Bible verses (cannot recall which verses at the moment) about he who should get more stripes gets less on this topic. Bottom line: your duty is to inform your conscience with the Church, and to obey the Church-formed conscience, not do what you feel like. *** Mark from PA, those who practice and condone mortal sins of homosexual behavior and call themselves "devout Catholics" is equally an absolute outrage.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 7:23 PM By MarkF
Earlier this year I bought something called the "Catholic Study Bible." It was awful. If any book was designed to break a person's faith, this was it. There was no critical attack of the faith that was not in this book. The religious instructor at my parish told me to beware of anything with the word "Catholic" in it. He's right too... Catholics for Choice, National Catholic Reporter, Catholic Study Bible, etc.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 9:33 PM By JLS
PA, welcome to Catholic education 101.
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Posted Friday, November 21, 2008 11:47 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher,
Mark F,
In Theology there are two types of ignorance, culpable and inculpable. What Father was trying to tell you is that if you don't know because you don't want to know or because you refuse to know, YOU ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE BEFORE GOD!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:27 AM By JLS
MarkF, one further comment on the folly of joining an anti-Church organization, even with the intention of "subverting" them for possible conversions. The people in these organizations are well aware of the issues and the positions, and they choose evil over good. They call evil good. One example: Two decades ago it was admitted to me by a woman who counseled for abortion at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles that, yes, she knew abortion was the murder of unborn babies, but that it was necessary. She did not water down her admittal by saying "killing", but used the accurate term, "murder". Recently a woman leader of one of the more notorious pro-abortion organizations said as much. These people are not uninformed or ignorant ... they know the sin and love it, and they will tear you up if they can ... this is why it is critical for the Catholic to rely on spiritual power such as Our Lady Mary Blessed Virgin Forever and St Michael the Archangel, and your own Guardian Angel. There are also more spiritual helps who are powerful in the road to Heaven.
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Posted Saturday, November 22, 2008 11:00 AM By Almond Milk
RR
great response to Mark from PA! His comments outrage me because he gets outraged at what he is condoning! (With his vote and his error views on homosexuality!
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Posted Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:33 PM By Mark from PA
In no way do I condone abortion. As I stated on another discussion, I voted for Obama in the primary because I did not want 4 more years of the Clintons in the White House. I actually discussed this with the priest that I go to for confession. I vote in all elections, it seems that some of you think that I should not have voted at all since there was no "perfect" candidate. A friend of mine voted for Ralph Nader but Nader isn't all that pro-life either.
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Posted Saturday, November 22, 2008 7:04 PM By JLS
Kenneth, it sounds to me from the content of your post that perhaps you meant to address not MarkF, but Mark from PA.
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Posted Saturday, November 22, 2008 9:15 PM By Mark from PA
No JLS, I have no intention of joining Catholics for Choice. I am offended by this organization. Didn't you get that by reading my posts. I don't think he is slamming me here.
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Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:35 AM By RR
Almond Milk: He does this in all of his posts. He's so hypocritical.
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Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 12:07 PM By Anne T.
Mark F., the Ignatius Study Bible is an excellent newer study Bible that is very orthodox and true to the Majesterium. The only problem is that Ignatius Press has printed only the New Testament, so far as I know, with each book of the New Testament in a separate booklet. One can buy them one a time for about $9.99 each. There are a few of the shorter New Testament books combined in one or two of the booklets. There is also the older Haydock Commentary editions, two volumnes--Old and New Testaments; and the newer Navarre Study Bible with, I think, both Testaments. They are all orthodox Catholic editions.
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Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 3:55 PM By Mark from PA
It is amazing how one cannot even be pro-life here without being slammed. In another conversation I was told by someone that even though he was pro-choice he completely understood why I was pro-life and had great respect for me because of my convictions. He knew that my pro-life views were an integral part of who I was and consistant with who I was as a person. He said he respected me because I was a person who lived up to God's teachings.
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Posted Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:37 PM By Almond Milk
My apologies Mark from PA. Keep being pro-life. Just perhaps next time, may our Lord give us a next time, vote for a candidate that is pro-life. You mentioned that you voted Republican before but this is the first you voted Democrat. Mark of all times to pick to vote for a Democrat, that puzzles me because everyone that I know, at least the faithful, they know that Obama is the most extreme in his beliefs, he is worst than Hillary from what I heard. He makes Hillary look like an angel. From your past e-mails it makes me believe that you voted for him because of his liberal views on homosexuality rights, perhaps that is your real reason for your vote for him and perhaps those views blinded your good sense as a Catholic Christian. I am only guessing? You don't have to reply but I'm wondering how honest you truly are with yourself.
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Posted Monday, November 24, 2008 12:14 PM By MarkF
JLS, I agree with you by half that people who are involved with abortion know and love what they are doing. It depends on who we are talking about though. A person whose whole life is devoted to abortion, well, they have probably embraced sin so much and have identified themselves so much with their sin that their will power and reason are surely affected by it. I've seen this first hand in radical pro-homosexual people too. On the other hand, if someone is the average person who supports abortion or any other sin as a political matter, that's certainly a sin but it's not the same as making a career out of it. But even the worst of these sinners has a heart that wants God, whether they admit it or not. That's what he have to remember. We've got a thin line to tread here and that is to uphold righteousness in the world but also to show Christ's love to those very sinners who are spreading unrighteousness in the world. I've talked to several homosexuals who, though not ready to move out of this sin, have listened to me and seen the truth of what I'm talking about, if I say it with love and not condemnation. Some however we have to treat as Jesus told us to... just dust our shoes off and move on. What I wish that all the fence straddlers who are not homosexuals, but who support it could see and hear is how evil some people are when they are devoted to homosexuality, how some love evil and hate the good, and also how much pain, confusion and sadness sin causes. The same can be said about the pro-abortion people too. What I'm trying to do is to see the humanity in even these people as I talk to them.
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Posted Monday, November 24, 2008 8:10 PM By Mark from PA
Almond Milk, there were many reasons that I voted for Obama. I thought that he was the best choice. I hope that he can unite our county. The last several years have not been good ones. The middle class has suffered as more and more of the wealth of the country has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Too many children in our country are without health care or even enough to eat and most of the rich could care less. I have mixed feelings about the Iraq War. Hopefully we did the right thing and saved lives by going into Iraq but I don't know. Time will tell I suppose. I think of all the black Americans and how joyful Obama's election is for them. Many of them surely thought they would never see the day. Many of the elderly black women in the South who voted for Obama did not even have the right to vote 50 years ago. What must this have felt like for them? Obama's election was so historic. I have hopes that this will be good for the US. I have much respect for John McCain and feel that he has great respect for Barack Obama. I probably would have voted for McCain 4 or 8 years ago but with his age and health issues, I would not wish such a stressful job on him with all the problems facing our country today. He had more experience than Obama but I felt that Obama was better suited to withstand the stress and pressures of the Presidency. I like Sarah Palin and she would be a good Vice President but I don't think she had enough experience to take over as President if something happened to McCain. Joe Biden is more qualified. I hope that Obama remembers that 54% of Catholics voted for him and he will also be the President of Catholics and all pro-life Americans.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 2:16 PM By Mark from PA
One thing that saddens me about the Bush administration is that it has not protected the Christians of Iraq. I have read that now many Christians in Iraq are suffering persecution. Christian communities have been in this region since the early Christian era. Now many Christians are fleeing and many have even been killed. It saddens me deeply that our government may be in part responsible for a loss of Christians and Christian faith in Iraq. It is tragic that the war in Iraq has decimated the Christian communities of Iraq.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 8:22 PM By Grisha
Mark from PA: Catholics are being raped and murdered, solely for being Catholic, in India by extremist Hindu militants and Bush and co. have not even spoken out. Hopefully when we rejoin the world community with the Obama admistration, that issue will at least make the radar screen.
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Posted Friday, November 28, 2008 10:40 PM By Almond Milk
Mark from PA thanks for sharing your opinion. It's funny how people share your views regarding Bush, but frankly I do not. I actually never saw anything wrong with Bush. I am a middle class young mom. I love my stay at home status and I greatly thank Bush for that. When Bush came into office, that is when we finally worked it out for me to be a stay at home, even though it was tight but with Bush's extra tax return for families, it truly has helped us make our dream for me to be a stay at home mom. So we truly enjoyed Bush's plan for our family, so I find it hard to believe that people believe that they had it hard with Bush in office, when in fact I saw lots of families spend their extra tax refunds and were buying extra luxery items they always wanted. I know Bush was not perfect but I actually liked him. He worked well for my family and for our friends in the military as well. My friends loved him too and they were in the military. So i guess everyone has their own personal opinions about him. Now my husband and I are worried for the years to come, I hope that we, the middle class can still survive with a democrat president. I don't like Obama, morally I will never like him, I am a pro-lifer, I will not ever like Obama. Human dignity from conception to natual death is much more important to me than any other political platform. I value life and traditional moral values. My values are guided by my true Abba Father, God almighty in the Holy Trinity through His church.
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 1:46 AM By Raji
"Solely for being Catholic"... The hardline Vishwa Hindu Parishad, or World Hindu Council rejected the claim saying the communist group -- known as 'Naxals' -- did not have a religious agenda. "Have the Maoists started fighting in the name of God now?" VHP leader Subansh Chauhan was quoted as saying by CNN-IBN, CNN's sister network. The rebels, who claim to be fighting for the poor and the dispossessed, have been battling the government in an insurgency that has resulted in thousands of casualties since the late 1960s. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has called Naxalism India's biggest security threat. Last year, more than 800 people were killed in Naxal-related violence across the country, according to local media reports.
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:07 AM By RR
Grisha: It is awful what is happening to these people, but what about the most innocent lives being killed through abortion evey day who are slaughtered and never even got to breathe a breath of air? Do ya really think the Obamanation is going to do anything to help them? The Obamanation & co. have surely spoken out and let known that the first thing the Obamanation & co. are going to do is lift all bans on abortion and enforce the FOCA. When will you, Mark from PA, John F. Maguire, and others realize how evil the Obamanation is? Wake up!!!
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:59 AM By Mark from PA
I had heard that too Grisha. It is confusing to me because I always thought that the Hindus were a very peaceful people. It seems that a lot of lower caste Indians are converting to Christianity. I know that there is considerable tension between the Hindus and the Muslims. The current situation in Mumbai is horrific. We have many Indian priests in our diocese. One of my best friends who is a priest has an Indian assistant. We are thankful for the service that these fine Indian priests give to our diocese.
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 4:03 PM By VACatholic
May God have mercy on the state of California
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Posted Saturday, November 29, 2008 9:24 PM By Mark from PA
Almond Milk, I voted for G.W. Bush twice. I like him and support him in some things. He has been supportive of Catholics and named 2 pro-life Catholics to the Supreme Court. I even saw President Bush when he came to our area. Sadly, his 2nd term has not been a good one. The war in Iraq has been mismanaged although hopefully now things are improving. VP Cheney was given too much power. The rich have gotten a lot richer during his term but the middle class has seen their income drop. So it is a mixed record. It is still to early to see what history's judgment will be.
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Posted Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:21 AM By Grisha
Raji & Mark fm PA: This summer a drove a visting priest from India to a football game. On the ride over he gave me his views on the situation. He said that Hindu extremists are being mobilized by one of the politiocal parties in advance of coming electons. Along the lines of what Mark wrote, lower caste people often see Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) as a way to become educated and lift themselves out of generations of poverty. The extremists see this as a threat. Christians are seen as being peaceful, and therefore as a softer target than the Muslims who will, as we just saw, more readily resort to violence. As in what I've seen in Russia, if the government is unwilling or unable to protect everyone majority and minorities, inter communal violence not only begins but grows out of control. As we saw in Mumbai, extremists of any faith are a threat to the rest of us of every faith.
“There is something about violence. Once unleashed it usually tends to escalate.”
~ Joseph Wambugh in Lines and Shadows~
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Posted Monday, December 01, 2008 6:46 PM By Almond Milk
VACatholic I think that God still has mercy on California because the faithful are fighting the good fight, unfortunitly we are out numbered. Mark from PA it is great to hear that I'm not the only one who liked Bush. : ) Praise God that you pointed out the good things that Bush did while in office, to help others focus on the good and apprecaite what we had. Now things will change next year and I'm afraid it's gonna get worst. Such is life, oh well, we must continue to keep our trust in God and fight the good fight in Jesus.
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Posted Tuesday, December 02, 2008 8:53 AM By Trinity 3
Arnold continues to betray the Republican Party! He is a traitor!
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Posted Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:13 AM By Maria C
I pray for the conversion of all sinners especiall those in office!
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