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Published: April 13, 2007
“Still expected”
Latin Mass growing in California while faithful await word on when or if Benedict XVI will issue his much-rumored motu proprio
Offering the Mass in Latin according to the 1962 missal (the Tridentine Rite) is growing slowly and steadily in California. In late March, the diocese of Sacramento began allowing the celebration of the Tridentine Mass at St. John the Baptist church in Chico every Sunday at 2 p.m. Father Paul Schloeder of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter will say the Mass in Chico on the first and third Sundays, and every day at 5 p.m.
 In 1998, Sacramento Bishop William Weigand permitted a Latin Mass community under the Priestly Fraternity, which meets at St. Stephen the First Martyr church in Sacramento.
But other bishops in recent years -- and even recent months -- have begun extending permission for the Tridentine Mass. In January, Bishop Patrick McGrath of the San Jose established a full-fledged oratory for the Tridentine Rite at the Chapel of Our Lady of Perpetual Help in Santa Clara.
One surprise has been Bishop Tod Brown of the Diocese of Orange. In 2004, Brown ended the Tridentine Mass at St. Mary’s by the Sea in Huntington Beach, leaving the Father Serra Chapel at Mission San Juan Capistrano as the only diocesan location for the traditional Mass. In February, however, Brown decided to allow a trial Mass in Latin at the John Paul II Polish Center in Yorba Linda.
Why the change? A statement from the Orange diocese mentioned that a motu proprio regarding the availability of the old rite “is expected soon from Pope Benedict XVI.”
This new motu proprio has been a matter of great rumor for more than a year, with speculation across the world on when – or if – Benedict XVI will issue it. As the April 7 Australian noted, there has been “a great deal of media speculation that it might be released as soon as Maundy Thursday, the Feast of the Last Supper” -- a date that “would have coincided neatly with the 38th anniversary of the promulgation of Pope Paul VI’s new rite of mass, the novus ordo.”
The new permission, of course, didn’t materialize. But, it seems, it is really coming, at least if one can believe the Holy See’s secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone. In an interview that appeared in the March 31 edition of the French journal Le Figaro, Bertone was asked if the decree widening permission for old rite is “still expected.”
“The merit of the conciliar liturgical reform is intact,” said Bertone, according to an excerpt published by the French Internet news site, Chretiente Info. But, Bertone said, in order that the Church might not lose “the great liturgical heritage left by Saint Pius V” and to accommodate “those faithful who desire to attend Masses according to this rite... with its own calendar, there is no valid reason not to grant to every priest in the world the right to celebrate according to this form.”
Bertone, however, would say little more. “It will be the pope himself who will explain his motivations and the framework of his decision,” he said. “The Sovereign Pontiff will personally explain his vision for the use of the ancient missal to the Christian people, and particularly to the bishops.”
Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 8:06 AM By Puttss
I don't get it. how can you exercise your priesthood in a language that you don't even understand? Wake up, World. The Eucharist is not superstition, it is worship and we pray what we believe. How many of you can express the faith that you profess in Latin? If you can't, then participate in the Sacred Sacrifice of the Mass in English. And the rest of ghe language groups should do the same. Worship in your mother tongue.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 9:04 AM By Robert L. Lockwood
Here is the rub. No matter what the Vatican statement is, the statement will conclude with "the final decision will be left up to the local ordinary "- the Bishop. Very little will change other than the idea the Vatican recognizes that there is a strong desire on the part of many Catholics that they are more than dismayed at the mess the Mass is made of since Vatican II, especially in California. Until there is a wholesale change in the Bishops nothing signifigant will happen and that itself won't happen. Remember, in most cases, the Bishops are no longer responsible to the Pope. What we now have is a Pope for each diocese in the country and this equals chaos.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 10:05 AM By Marvin Cothran
I am a convert. I celebrated my 10th anniversityas a Catholic on Easter Sunday. I am now a chronically ill person and I couldn't attend the Easter Vigil. I am a "student" of the Catholic faith and I look forward to the possibility of attending a Tridentine Mass. At present I would like to be able to attend Mass that is liturgically correct including the music. Sometimes I think I am in a protetant service. I can sing most of the hymns from memory from my protestant days. Before I got ill traveled a lot and always attended mass on Sunday. I have been a participant in mass at some Parishes that were startling in the lack of fidelity to the liturgy of the Catholic Church.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 10:27 AM By Central Valley
It appears as if the writing is on the wall for some of the California bishops. Recently Fresno bishop John Steinbock allowed Fraternity priests from Sacramento to travel to Fresno a few times a month to celebrate Mass. Although never hostile to the Latin Mass communities, Steinbock seems to be more understanding these days. I recently spoke with a member of the Fraternity and was told they have so many requests for priests that they are unable to fill the need at this time and even some bishops who don't speak publicly of the Latin Mass are at least trying to supply priests for the faithful. The summer Latin Mass course for priests offered by the Faternity is filled up already by diocesan priest, this is a very good sign.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 10:27 AM By James
Puttss, you simply don't understand the issue. The Latin language was one of the greatest unifiers the Roman Church had. Anywhere in the world one went for Mass, they could worship in the same tongue. After I had attended the traditional Latin Mass for only a few months, I could easily follow along with the Latin. For those who can't, there are missals. The positives as regards the language far outweigh any negatives. It is very divisive to have so many languages in the Latin Rite. I can't go across town to a Mass and understand it because it's in Spanish or Lithuanian or whatever. If it were all Latin, that would be remedied and would actually encourage MORE active participation.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 10:44 AM By Richard
“The merit of the conciliar liturgical reform is intact,” said Bertone. What a sick joke! All the "reform" has caused is problems. One small example: my wife is the director of music in a bilingual Novus Ordo parish where there is constant in-fighting over Spanish and English, especially in music. Gee, at a Traditional High Mass in my parish everything is in Latin including the hymns and language is a non-issue. Seems like a no-brainer to me!
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 11:07 AM By Robert L. Lockwook
In response to Puttss - If you knew anything about the traditional Mass you would know that you follow it with a missal and the missal is in both Latin and English so what you don't understand by language you will understand by effort. One of the many problems with the Novus Ordo Mass is is there is little prayerfullness and mostly entertainment. What the traditional Mass brings is that we are connecting with Christ in prayerwith uniformity, not by your choice entertainment.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 11:33 AM By Craig Kelso
PUTTSS, I understand your frustration. IF you feel the mis-named, though easier to say in passing, LATIN MASS is only about 'Latin' then, well, it WOULD be be silly to spend much time considering. To be honest, the Latin Mass is THE MASS as your fathers and mothers of old celebrated for centuries. It is The Mass of the saints, the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. Those who worship in the Old Mass are MUCH MORE informed about their faith, the meaning of the Holy Eucharist, than their vernacular counterparts (just a hunch). To the others offering sober caution about the moto proprio, I agree. It won't be the freedom I hope for, but it will be better than what we have (I pray). It might even debunk the PUTTSSs of the world (no offense meant) in that they'd be able to worship without feeling like cranks. Pax tecum, +Craig Kelso
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 11:47 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
I have attended Mass in the fields of France during the Chartres Pilgrimage. What a sight, persons from at least 20 different countries and languages attending the same Mass in Latin, most had their SAINT PIUS V Missal and could easily follow.
The only thing they couldn't follow was the optional Homily. I say optional because it is not necessary for the Sacrifice of the Mass. But some even had printed translations of the Homily!
For a great experience of the Universality of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, I would recommend the Chartres Pilgrmage to anyone
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 12:51 PM By Janet
You people put your faith in the language & words spoken by MEN, the posture & behaviour of MEN, the RULES of MEN, and in yourselves and your 'SUPERIOR" knowledge of what this Pope said vs. what that Pope said when all the time right before your very eyes in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Our Blessed Lord. It is HE who is THE ONLY perfection in the Mass. Not YOUR words, YOUR posture, YOUR knowledge.
You're worshipping the false God of your ritual over the True God ever present before you in the Tabernacles of the world. Why don't you spend an hour a week praying before the Blessed Sacrament?
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 2:00 PM By Gregorian
Richard, actually that was a pretty clever statement Cardinal Bertone made. Parse it. It's very neutral. BTW, hymns were sung in English (and Spanish) in the pre-conciliar days too. So your wife would be having the same problems had the council never taken place.
Craig, if you don't want to feel like a crank for going to the Tridentine Mass, don't be one. Chronic crankiness is one of the moral pitfalls I've observed in the Tridentine Mass community, along with holier than thou attitudes, infighting, self-serving martyrdom complexes, disrespect for the Church and it's hierarchy, crankiness, being judgmental, elitism, conspiracy theorizing, schismatic and Protestant attitudes, and complacency (i.e. I go to the Old Mass and therefore I'm saved.) And please don't write me a list of Novus Ordo pitfalls. I'm aware of them too. The point is, if you're going to go to the Tridentine Mass, do it for the right reasons: the beauty, the prayerfulness, the Latin, the symbolism, the reverence, the chant, the richness, the sense of ritual. Don't do it out of a sense of protest, don't frequent illicit old Masses (no good can come of that), and don't take part in the gossiping and Novus Ordo bashing that plagues our Tridentine communities. And stop calling it "The Latin Mass." Latin is not exclusive to the Tridentine Mass.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 2:47 PM By Jeff Culbreath
Thanks for this article CCD. One correction though: Priests from the FSSP will be celebrating Mass in Chico on the first and third Sundays. Fr. Schloeder, who is not a member of the FSSP, will be saying Mass on the remaining Sundays as well as 5:00pm weekdays. Deo gratias!
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 4:30 PM By Doug
For all of you who long to return to the Tridentine Holy Mass and receive the Holy Sacraments from the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church, they remain preserved and practiced at some locations in southern California, you don't have to wait for a decision by your local bishop for approval. You can find locations across the nation (including California) listed at www.traditio.com. Unfortunately not all of the locations noted will be Tridentine Holy Masses, some may be latinized versions of the Norvus Ordo Mass. You will need to ask or check the listed points of contact out. For those catholics living in San Diego who want more information, you can call (619) 244-8766 or visit www.fatimaparish.org
May God Bless You
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 5:33 PM By Ann Cinquina
The Holy Spirit works in a mysterious way and hopefully he will whisper in the ears of the Pope that traditional Catholics have been yearning for the TRUE mass for decades. All he has to do is see what damage has been done by Vatican II.
Let us keep praying for the return of real worship in the Catholic mass.
Ann Cinquina
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 6:28 PM By Leonard
I grew up with the Latin Mass, was an alter server (both Latin and English), and went to catholic elementary and high schools. I prefer to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a language that I can understand. There is not much participation if I can’t understand what is being said. If I have to keep my head buried in a missal to read what is being said, I am not participating fully. I think that is why most of us attend the mass in our own languages.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 8:47 PM By JPeterson
I have to agree with Robert Lockwood, until there is wholesale replacement of (some) of these Bishops, not much real change will occur. I certainly wish nothing bad of our current Bishops but many local Parishes are simply lost like sheep without a shepherd. The faith has been so washed out over the years that the Holy Mass has in many cases become one Holy mess.
I have been a Catholic all my life..37 years (cooincidentally I was born the same year when the Latin Mass was shelved after over 1500 or more years..lucky me!) I have never attended a Latin Mass in my life but if something can take the place of the terribly irreverant Mass that we currently have in my diocese (St Pete, FLA..you know, that Diocese where Terry Schiavo was put to death and Bishop Lynch said not a word and then subsequently remarried Michael Schiavo to his concubine in the Church!), than I am all for it.
I care not for all the bad singing, non traditional songs, announcements, hand shaking, introductions and the 1001 other things invented to take away from the sacrifice of our Lord. I don't think it's necessary to return to a Latin Mass all the time but I do believe that the traditional Latin Mass makes it much harder for individual Priests to add their own whimsy to the Holy Mass.
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 9:04 PM By cj
We need to keep praying that the Pope and Bishops will permit wider availability of the Traditional [Tridentine] Latin Mass. This is essentially the same Mass that had been celebrated for over 1500 years. It's tragic that that option is so limited now. A list of the availability of the Traditional Latin Mass is also available at www.ecclesiadei.org . Like Ken Fisher I used to attend the Traditional Mass in many countries of the world and it was the same everywhere...and it was a tremendously unifying "force".!
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Posted Friday, April 13, 2007 9:42 PM By Edgar A Suter MD
If the Mass of all the ages breaks out of the catacombs, Putts will have to toss his Missalettes, get on his knees, and read along in an English-Latin Missal.
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:57 AM By Dan
Many years ago, a very wise and holy priest told me that the Church is like a big tent...."there is enough room for everyone....conservative or liberal, republican or democrat, poor or rich, educated or uneducated". He was, may God have mercy on his soul, right! So it is with the latin mass....if some parishioners want to attend a traditional latin mass....fine! However, the latin mass should not become the only mass.....I find the "Novo Ordo" Mass very holy, including the contemporary music, the kiss of peace and announcements. The Tridentine Latin Mass does not meet my spiritual needs.
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:44 AM By Craig Kelso
GREGORIAN, oh no, no, no. I don't feel like a crank; I feel Catholic when praying the mis-named 'Latin Mass.' Again, the 'crank' reference was in how those who worship there FEEL = apart, 'wrong,' backward, and all the rest. Lifting the Pre-Conciliar Mass from its chains will, I think, marginalize those you were quick to lump me in with. I hope the following doesn't violate your warning: I WILL TAKE THE NUTTINESS OF THE TRIDENTINE COMMUNITY OVER THAT OF THE NOVUS ORDO ANY DAY. That's ANY day. A return to the 'Latin Mass.' EVEN IN A SMALL DOSE, will wash away YEARS of liturgical rot. Would rather have a group of people walking around thinking they were 'holier than thou' rather than a group who thought 'hey, who's to say what's holy or not, man, dude, bro? ... c'mon, break out the music for the worship space segment, dude, bro, man!' Pax tecum, +Craig Kelso
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:46 AM By Gilad
The Catholic Church is universal with a diverse group of Catholics from different cultures and traditions! (Eastern Rite- Catholics! With the much anticipated "Motu Proprio" I think would unify Traditional Catholics( I hope) under a Holy cause? All we need now is a Apostolic Viacarate to unify it's application to knowledgable priest, but more so with Holy priest to save souls and bring them back into the fold! Also! In my diocese there are Novus Ordo mass which advertise to be Latin Mass, which is fine, but yet, for those who don't no the difference maybe mistaken! We should call the mass the Tridentine Mass celebration rather than the Latin Mass or Tradition Latin Mass!
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:22 AM By Dan
Several years ago, I attended a service based upon the "Lima Liturgy" of the World Council of Churches. It was a very holy and spiritual experience. Hopefully, our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, will approve the use of the Lima Liturgy in the not-so-distant future.
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:11 PM By Eddie
I grew up with both the "old" and "new" mass, and understand both, but I personnally find the "old" rite to be more beautiful. Perhaps some would find it too rigid or formal, but to me that is its greatest strength.
We, as Catholics, are asked to believe in something as mysterious, awesome, and perhaps bizzare to some, as the concept of transubstantiation. This is the one point which seperates us from our Protestant friends. However, as the new mass developed throughout the 70s and 80s, in trying to reach out to as many people as possible, much of the ritual and physical action, which reinforced the beliefs of the central purpose of the mass, seems to have been lost.
I guess what I am trying to say is that for me, much of the ritual of the "old" rite helps me better appreciate and believe in the concept of transubstantion.
I'm not suggesting that the "new" mass be replaced. It probably can't be. There has been a whole generation raised on it, and that's all they know. However, perhaps the increased availability of the "old" rite will allow many Catholics to discover an alternative that they find more spiritually enriching.
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:45 PM By Reggie
I find more consolation and peace in the Tridentine Mass. Although I believe the Novus Ordo to be a valid Mass as well, look at the decimation of the Catholic Church since the liberalization of Vatican II. Can anyone say that things are better now?
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Posted Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:49 PM By Reggie
I find more consolation and peace in the Tridentine Mass. Although I believe the Novus Ordo to be a valid Mass as well, look at the decimation of the Catholic Church since the liberalization of Vatican II. Can anyone say that things are better now?
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Posted Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:51 AM By Hugh
I feel that most of those commenting have missed the obvious. The Novus Ordo and the Tridentine both have its strengths and weaknesses. Some Catholics will blossom with one and some with the other.
I think that I am correct that most California Catholic Daily readers feel that the hierarchy rightly runs the church and that the laity have no or very little voice in church policy matters. Well the Novus Ordo was implemented by pope and bishops under the old system or rule by fiat and that was and is the real issue.
The people were never asked their opinion. The lower clergy (priests) were never asked their opinion. Few if any practical exceptions were given for elderly priests to continue with the "old" Mass.
I love both the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine. However, I believe that the experience and the focus of each are quite different. The Catholic people should have been allowed to vote – to vote with their feet. And yes the Catholic people should have been consulted.
We were never consulted and that continues to be the problem.
Our bishops, in their "wisdom", did not trust the people or the lower clergy to adopt the Novus Ordo. They demanded that we adopt the "new" Mass. If priests were able to celebrate under either form the Catholic people would have been able to "VOTE WITH THEIR FEET". If more of the laity started attending the Novus Ordo, parishes could schedule more times for celebration. If the people continued to favor the Tridentine then parishes could schedule more "old" Masses and cut back on the Novus Ordo.
Our bishops didn't want this to happen. In retrospect it was a poor decision. However, the real problem is not the Novus Ordo, the real problem remains with the bishop's absolute rule and the Catholic people’s lack of any real voice.
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Posted Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:43 AM By Dan
With respect to the latin mass, I believe tjhat God is not so much concerned with which language is used to worship Him as much as He is concerned with the manner in which we live our lives that reflects our faith and trust in Him.
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Posted Sunday, April 15, 2007 6:28 PM By Dan
Hugh:
The sociological research conducted in recent years regarding Catholics leaving the Church has been consistent: the majority of former Catholics have not left the Church because of the changes (including changes in the liturgy) brought about by Vatican II, but because of the Church's teaching with respect to birth control.
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Posted Sunday, April 15, 2007 7:49 PM By Phil
Leonard and Puttss:
I grew up with the Novus Ordo, and by the time I was in college I had all but lost my love of the mass. Mass felt like an excuse for social gatherings and entertainment--very poor entertainment I might add. I dragged myself to mass on Sundays and hated every single minute of the showy, loud, chaotic mess that is our modern liturgy. The Traditional Latin Mass saved my faith. It's not just the Latin language that is reverent in the traditional mass, but every prayer and motion. The Novus Ordo stinks precisely because it trashed our reverent Christ-centered mass prayers. What is more, I found that true participation in the mass takes place in our hearts. We don't have to dance around the altar or bang on drums like idiots to participate in mass; we don't even have to answer prayers out loud. The sacrifice of the mass is ultimately between each of us and God. Shaking hands with my neighbor and belching out ugly, out of date hymns from the '70's is not true participation.
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Posted Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:36 PM By Hugh
Dan wrote: "With respect to the latin mass, I believe tjhat God is not so much concerned with which language is used to worship Him as much as He is concerned with the manner in which we live our lives that reflects our faith and trust in Him. "
I suggest that no one on here would disagree. However, some forms of liturgy are more condusive to spiritual growth than others. and why shouldn't Catholics have been given a choice? "In matters of the faith let us have unity, in other matters let us promote as much freedom as possible." (Not the exact quote but close ...grin...)
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 11:32 AM By George
The Latin language is not the issue. If it were the issue we would have kept the English language translation of the Latin Mass available to all in our missals before 1959. What is important is the INTENT of the Mass. Is the Mass a sacrifice as promoted by Pope St. Pius V and the Apostles? Is the Mass a commemoration of the Last Supper as promoted by Luther? Unfortunately, we currently have a Lutheran Mass cloaked in catholic vestments in radically modernized churches. While Latin in a great unifying language and should be promoted the "sacrificial intention" should and must be revived. Please, please no more clapping, no more hand shaking, no more raising our hands. We need more kneeling, praying and sacrificing. Interestingly, the Latin Mass has never been abrogated, according to a study done under Paul VI. Why then do we need permission from Rome? With regard to our Modern Bishops, has the Modernized Rite of Consecration of Bishops rendered them invalid because the consecration has lost its "intent"? Have our bishops essentially become protestant?
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 12:49 PM By Gregorian
Craig Kelso,
My point was only to say: go and appreciate the Tridentine Mass for the wonderful thing it is. Recognize the negative aspects of its community for what they are; temptations sent by the Temptor himself to destroy something good. I'm not talking out of my... ear here. My own family bears deep wounds over this issue, and I see that a tendency toward hating all things post-conciliar can be misconceived as a love for things pre-conciliar. Martyr complexes, and complacency then arise and before you know it, you're joing schismatic churches and thinking the way comment poster George (above) does. In short: recognize the pitfalls of traditionalism; avoid them. Recognize the goods of traditionalism; embrace them. Then crankiness won't be an issue for you.
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 12:55 PM By Gregorian
Phil,
I am very happy to hear that you were called back to the Church through the beauty of the Tridentine Mass. But I'm saddened to see you've fallen prey to the Novus Ordo-bashing spirit of the traditionalist community. Go to Thomas Aquinas College in Santa Paula some day and see the Novus Ordo in Latin. It's beautiful and Christ-centered. (Though, I still think the Tridentine is more beautiful.) Instead of saying "The Novus Ordo stinks," say, "Liturgical abuses stink." Because everything you list is a liturgical abuse of the Novus Ordo. And say no to schismatic thinking.
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 1:59 PM By Janet
george, sounds to me like you deny the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass, deny the validity of the Ordination of Priests and Bishops, and likewise deny the authority of the Holy See.
Be careful who's counsel you follow, and the counsel you give.
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 6:26 PM By Phil
Gregorian: the removal of the prayers at the foot of the altar, the Leonine prayers at the end of mass, various references to the Blessed Mother, references to our sinful nature and humility before God, as well as the turning around of the priest, reception of communion standing and in the hand, the addition of the pointless sign of peace (which removes our attention from the sacrifice to each other), the option of using a table rather than a high altar (giving the impression of a meal rather than a sacrifice), the option of using altar girls, and the usurpation of priestly faculties by the faithful are not abuses of the Novus Ordo: they are the the Novus Ordo. I certainly accept the validity of the Novus Ordo; nevertheless, the changes to our liturgy are inorganic and contrary to Catholic tradition. Some Novus Ordo masses are celebrated as well as humanly possible (I have attended Novus Ordo Latin masses), but such masses still suffer from many of the faults of the new liturgy. Jean Guitton, a close friend of His Late Holiness John XXIII, observer of Vatican II, and noted author wrote in 1993, "...the intention of Pope Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy... " You should compare the two liturgies side-by-side--it's quite interesting. Lastly, I may be a bit polemical, but don't worry: I am not schismatic. I am loyal to Holy Mother Church, our Holy Father, and our tradition.
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 6:30 PM By RG
George, you got it right, thanks!
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Posted Monday, April 16, 2007 8:00 PM By George
Janet, do you have the answer to the questions? What about the Lutheran Mass that is dished out every Sunday to unsuspecting Catholics? Luther said if he could take away the "sacrifice" of the Mass he would destroy the Church. Why doesn't the priest offer the sacrifice of the Mass anymore? Tell me. Interestingly, you refer to the new Mass as the Novus Ordo. Why did we need a "New Order" when the original "order" given to us through the Apostles was ordained by Christ? Questions, questions, questions. With regards to the Bishops, Christ said you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits of our Bishops? Can they claim they are promoting Catholic doctrine, conversion of Protestants and pagans? Can we say that our Bishops are defending Catholic doctrine as it relates to society? Can we say that our Church is more vibrant, more holy, and more apostolic than it was 40 years ago? Where were our Bishops while their priests were molesting children? Still, where were the Bishops when Sunday Mass became a place where woman came dressed inappropriately and men in shorts? Where were the Bishops when the Hindus worshipped at Fatima? Where were the Bishops when the Buddhists placed a Buddha on the tabernacle at Assisi? Good Questions. Is their inactivity the action of a Catholic? With sorrow in my heart do I ask theses questions. Regardless of the pain theses questions may engender, these questions need to be asked. The person asking the question does not automatically become a schismatic for asking the question nor does a priest offering the true Mass necessarily become a non Catholic. Lumen Gentium, signed by Paul VI in the 1960’s states that the Church of Christ only “subsists” in the Catholic Church. Vatican II essentially recognized the validity of Protestant churches as belonging to the Church of Christ and therein lies the rub for St. Thomas More, and all the other martyrs who died for the true faith. With all regards to all, God Bless.
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Posted Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:11 AM By dan
Where's Chris? Several of these posters appear to be promoting schism in order to promote the Tridentine Mass.
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Posted Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:56 PM By Gregorian
Phil,
Glad to hear of your faithfulness. I am with you in thinking the Tridentine Rite to be a superior form of worship. The Novus Ordo truly suffers by comparison to it. The church turned from greatness to mediocrity when it implemented the New Rite. My hope is that over time -- and I mean decades and even centuries -- first the abuses slip away, then Latin work it's way back into the Novus Ordo, then every parish have both rites, then the Tridentine rite slowly replace the Novus Ordo. Hopefully, church historians will look back at the Novus Ordo some day and say, "What were they thinking?"
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Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:43 PM By Doug
Many of us have troubled hearts and rightly so, we've witnessed tragedies in the modern Roman Catholic Church downfall. Some try to sugar coat the pain and defend it not looking at the truth straight in the eye. What has happened to our true and reverent Holy Roman Catholic faith and Sacraments? How did it decay to get here? Many baby-boomers have forgotten the true faith practiced before Vatican II. It is completely foreign to their children. Protestants like to feel good about religious celebrations, the rock music, dancing, and joking; but Sunday Holy Mass was meant to make God feel loved by us His obedient children in His Holy Way! Jesus said the first true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Holy Sacraments. He is the Alpha and Omega, unchanging, omnipotent. Would He approve that man change His teachings and the Holy Mass and Sacraments? Those changes are a desecration to God. At Vatican II Our Lord’s Holy Mass and Sacraments of receiving Grace were changed, no longer acceptable for modern mankind. Sadly, we think Protestants have become like us and ecumenism is good, when in reality the modern Catholic Church has become like them even embracing foreign Gods. We need to open our eyes. Place our hearts in Our Lord's and His Blessed Mothers hands. Give them our life, our heart, and our soul. Let them guide us, lead us; don't be afraid. Be honest and recognize the fruit, the fall from grace of the modern Roman Catholic Church, don't make excuses for it. Do you think the modern Bishops will admit the errors and reverse 40 years of ruin? Seek God where the Tridentine Holy Latin Mass and Pre-Vatican II Sacraments are preserved and practiced. You can find locations in southern California and across the world listed at www.traditio.com. Not all of the locations will be Tridentine Holy Masses, some may be latinized Norvus Ordo Masses. Ask the listed points of contact. For those living in San Diego who want more info, you can call (619) 244-8766 or visit www.fatimaparish.org May God Bless You
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:22 AM By Janet
George. **re "Lumen Gentium, signed by Paul VI in the 1960’s states that the Church of Christ only “subsists” in the Catholic Church."**
Do you know what the word subsists means? It means: from Latin subsistere: to exist, to come to a halt, remain, to come to a stand; to have existence. So am I to understand that you don't agree that the Church of Christ "exists, comes to it's halt, remains, and has it's existence" in the Catholic Church?????
What of your faith in the authority and infallibility of the Pope & Councils? does that only apply to certain Popes? Is there some magical "cut off" date in Christs promise that the "gates of hell shall not prevail" and the promise of the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
I can't answer your questions for you, but I can say that the answer is not to abandon the Church through dissent or schism. This is not the first and probably won't be the last time the Church has been through scandal. Even during the Vatican I era there were abuses in the Church that makes the abuses of today pale in comparison. One of the most notorious popes in history, Pope Alexander VI fathered nine children from six different concubines. He put out contracts against those he considered his enemies. Priests, Religious and lay Catholics weren't much better. Martin Luther was scandalized by such rampant abuse which led to his protest and schism. So what of these bad fruits? Does this mean that Vatican I is to blame?
I think the answer lies in that God also brought up humble & obediant Saints to reform the Church from within i.e. St. Francis of Assisi, St. Terese of Avila, St. Francis de Sales to name a few. We are all called to be saints, called to holiness. Why not look inwardly towards BEING holy rather than looking outwardly at what sinners do? Read Luke 18:10-15. instead of blaming the Church and Vatican II for those who are abusing the Liturgy.
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:42 AM By Janet
actually Doug, you're way off base. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was not "meant to make God feel loved by us His obedient children in His Holy Way". It is the "Holy SACRIFICE of the Mass". It is the last Supper where Jesus institutes the Sacrament of the Eucharist, himself as the sacrificial Lamb of God, the Bread of Life. It is Calvary.
It is not ABOUT US. It is not about MAN and his creation, his posture, his words, his rubrics, his manner & dress, his bells & smells. The Mass is ABOUT GOD.
Here's what Saint John Vianney says about "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass"
"All Good Works together are not of equal value with the sacrifice of the Mass, because they are the works of men, and the holy Mass is the work of God. Martyrdom is nothing in comparison; it is the sacrifice that man makes of his life to God; the Mass is the sacrifice that God makes to man of His Body and of His Blood. Oh, how great is a priest! if he understood himself he would die. . . . God obeys him; he speaks two words, and Our Lord comes down from Heaven at his voice, and shuts Himself up in a little Host. God looks upon the altar. "That is My well-beloved Son, " He says, "in whom I am well-pleased. " He can refuse nothing to the merits of the offering of this Victim. If we had faith, we should see God hidden in the priest like a light behind a glass, like wine mingled with water. " (http://www.catholic-forum.com/SAINTS/stj18012.htm)
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:23 AM By dan
With respect to the Tridentine Mass:
1. Between 360 and 382 Latin was introduced into the worship of the Church. During the same period, Latin became the official language of the Church
2. Jesus did not speak Latin. The language Jesus used at the Last Supper was undoubtedly Aramaic
3. The Tridentine Mass approved by the Council of Trent (1545) is based on a liturgy promoted by Pope Gregory in the Sixth Century.
4. God speaks in many languages..possibly including latin. Most likely, God speaks to the human heart and mind in many ways, in some instances not even involving language.
I am concerned that some of the postings above are inaccurate with respect to the development/evolution of the liturgy in the history of the Church
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:30 PM By Doug
Janet, I think you misconstrued my point claiming that I was “way off base”. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I agree with your view about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is Our Lord’s ignominious crucifixion and death re-enacted in an unbloody way. It is not meant to commemorate the Last Supper. The Tridentine Holy Mass is Calvary! It is not a party and not to be desecrated. God deserves our full love, sorrow, adoration, and attention, at His Sacrifice on Calvary whom His most sorrowful Mother witnessed at the foot of His Holy Cross. The point I was trying to make goes back to the basic commandment to keep Holy the Lord's Day. God commanded that we set that time (Sunday) aside for Him to dwell on Him, love Him, and pray for His many Graces. We know we need His Graces as we are frail ,subject to falling into temptations. We receive God’s Holy Graces in Holy Mass. We can't possibly conceive the tremendous magnitude just one Holy Mass provides us in God's Grace. I find reading and praying the Tridentine Holy Mass prayers (as Pope St Pius X so strongly encouraged catholics to do so) to fill my heart and soul with God’s love. Our holy priest speaking in latin does not distract me or feel lost when I read the prayers accurately translated in English. Oh how beautiful the Tridentine Holy Mass prayers truly are! I'd also like to say this to Dan, the Church Magestirium chose Latin for its official language because it is a dead language i.e. the meaning of the words do not change with time like other languages or that it sounds nicer. Latin was chosen to preserve the meaning of the prayers said by the priest at Holy Mass in their most original Holy and Perfect Way; as exactly as possible to what Our Lord spoke at the First Holy Mass yes in Aramaic. I would suggest all find and read the Pre-Vatican II seminary book :”How Christ said the First Mass” . The trouble is Vatican II didn't just change to the vernacular languages that set up errors, Vatican II changed the words and their meanings as well. May God Bless and Lead Us All.
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:19 PM By Olivier Rey
We live in an intelligent society, and we are now limitless somehow on the aspect of sciences, mathematics, linguistics, grammar, philosophy, and so on...
Many of us heard about the Motu Propio of Pope Benedict XVI on the widespread news of the Holy Tridentine Liturgy. Some Catholics "especially" in the hierarchy of the Church are completely against it for many (unCatholic reasons). They are against it because of the language use in the Liturgy (why not study it or read the english version from the Missal, after all we're all smart, right!), the customs and vestments used by the clery are outdated for them (cause they wanted to use a contemporary vestment which is not offensive to other religion, but i think it doesn't honor God and plus contemporary style is so carnival), the liturgy is so masculine (duh! read the Holy Bible especially of St. Paul's epistles), and they can't stand the Theology behind the Liturgy it's so Catholic (Oh yeah! the novus ordo is protestant friendly. They destroyed the Catholic Church!). I'm a 21 years old man and my faith increased more when I converted to the Traditional and Orthodox Catholic because here everybody is on the same page and believed on the same Biblical teachings and Theology. Unlike when i was in the novus ordo church everything is unholy and towards the people and not focused to God. In addition to that, the clergy can do whatever they want during the Liturgy which evades the proper rubrics, and they incorporate unCatholic rituals and rites like liturgical dances. I hope we all come back to the Tridentine Liturgy because this is the true Catholic identity, and it is the fulfillment of the law which our Lord commanded to us and which is handed down by the Apostoles from generations to generations. “Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and don't lean on your own understanding. In all things acknowledge him, and he shall direct your way. [Proverbs 3:5, 6]”
Pax Vobis!
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:23 PM By George
Janet, thank you for pointing out my faults. I am imperfect and need correction in charity. Please pray for me. Thank you for clarifying the work subsist in Latin "subsistere" means to exist, to come to a halt, remain. As subsists means to exist it’s existence is not exclusive to the Catholic Church but some other larger Church. Saying the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church (“exists” in the Catholic Church) leaves open the possibility that it exits within the Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist Church etc. You see that is what Lumen Gentium actually sets forth as our new Constitution of the Church. Why didn’t they make it easy on us English speakers and simply say the Church of Christ “IS” the Catholic Church. “IS” is a simple and very clear English word, no confusion. In Latin “is” = “EST” a very clear simple Latin word. As a matter of fact they didn’t even say “subsist” in the Roman Catholic Church to differentiate us for the true schismatic’s (as you have insinuated that I am) like the Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox.? It appears that they were setting the stage for the inclusion of all Christian sects under the umbrella of the New Church of Rome while they confused the Catholic in pews to maintain an income stream and provide a conducive environment with relaxed dogma to invite the Protestants into the fold. Their plan backfired though, and Catholics left in droves. The majority Catholics either became Protestants, non believers or stopped going to church altogether. They softened dogma and replaced the sacrificial nature of Mass with a supper. I see you mention Vatican I. Our clergy must have been doing something right because Church attendance was 80% seminaries were bursting at the seams, Catholic schools were being built and women were dedicating their lives to Christ as nuns. Your right Janet, there have been good Popes and bad Popes. There have even been saintly Popes. No Pope prior to 1958 altered dogma. The problem with Vatican II is that it altered dogma creating essentially a new religion that captured believing and obedient Catholics in a new religion. Now Janet, I have not personally attacked you or questioned you fa
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:41 PM By Keith
"Prayer is good no matter where or how it is offered" ~ Dean of Lourdes, 1858
Allowing people choice is a good idea. I like both masses. Why must it be an us (English Mass) or them (Latin Mass) Mentality? Are we not a "Catholic" Church? Let's start praying and loving, that is what its about! Does it really matter how we pray as long as we pray?
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Posted Friday, April 20, 2007 6:12 PM By janet
George, all these things you are bringing up are pure conjecture, none are found in fact. Why the mental gymnastics to redefine words outside of the dictiionary and commonly understood meaning? I gave you the definition of subsists then you jump through hoops to redefine it and give it sinister connotations. The definition of Subsists I gave above (from the dictionary) "to have it's existance" in is the same as "est" which is a form of the word "to be" as in "has existance" but subsits goes further and says "comes to it's halt" which means that's where the existance ends as in "doesn't exist outside". Can you see how Vatican II's using the word subsists in this way is a more perfect word? In any event it would be redundant for Vatican II to simply reiterate Vatican I. Vatican II assumes into itself the definition of "est" and furthers that definition rather than denying that definition. I disagree that Vatican II has altered dogma. Can you show me some FACTS that prove this serious accusation that are not conjecture, extrapolations or re-definition?
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Posted Saturday, April 21, 2007 4:21 PM By George
Janet,
Regarding the definition of subsist. No I am not doing mental gymnastics! Yes, ‘“subsists” in the Catholic Church” does mean that the Church of Christ is found in the Catholic Church. No argument there. More importantly, though it leaves the door open to acknowledging that the Catholic Church is not the only Church of Christ. The Protestants have been waiting for this acknowledgement for years. The Reformation won! Too bad for St. Thomas More and the English martyrs, you have a Protestant Mass now. No, Janet, “subsist” does not mean “is”. “Is” is very clear and to the point; no doubt with the word “is”. As far as proof about Vatican II I don’t have to do too much research. My local Church St John of the Cross in Lemon Grove, CA encouraged parishioners this Good Friday to go to Protestant Churches on pilgrimage. John Paul II lent the Arch Bishop of Canterbury his ring to bless the crowds in St. Peters square. Also Benedict the XVI concelebrated Easter Mass with Schismatic Orthodox priests at Easter. If they did not think these Protestants and Schematics were not part of the Church of God would they have done this? NO, Janet. Their actions speak louder than words. God bless.
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Posted Monday, April 23, 2007 11:30 PM By janet
George
My house IS green. That doesn't mean that there aren't other green houses. The parsing of words can go either way.
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Posted Tuesday, April 24, 2007 6:15 AM By Matthew
those who think the only difference between the mass of paul VI(novus ordo) and the Tridentine Latin mass, is the latin language itself, have not attended a Tridentine mass. they are completely different. the new mass though valid, is very dangerous, its killing the church and vocations to the priesthood. changes must happen now before no priests are left, and there can be no more eucharist. we are in urgent times.
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Posted Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:35 PM By Dan
I agree with Puttss. Most American Catholics do not have a decent knowledge of latin. For the majority of the laity, attending a latin mass is fits into the old Catholic stereotype of "mumbo-jumbo." If people want to attend a Tridentine Mass....fine! Just do not force it on the rest of us. The mass in the vernacular (english) is beatiful and holy from my perspective. Drop all of this nonsense about the latin mass as the savior of the church. Christ is our savior....not the latin mass.
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:23 PM By George
Thank you Janet, I think you got it. That's the point Janet, your house "is" green means there are other green houses. Yes, and if water "subsists" in your glass, sink, river, ocean and anywhere else its substance "is" still water. But the Church of Church "is" the Roman Catholic Church. It did not spill over into the the Lutheran Church, Anglican or otherwise. It can only be the Catholic Church. Vatican II reversed that and said basically that it spilled over into other Churches. How many times have you heard a priest refer to Protestants as “separated brethren"?
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:50 PM By George
Dan,
The issue is not the language. The issue is the nature of the Mass. We lived without the true nature so long in the Catholic Church that we do not even know what it is, was, and supposed to be. As Christ gave himself up in sacrifice at the Last Supper our Mass should likewise reflect this passionate sacrifice. There as Christ commanded his apostles, our priests should offer a Mass that reflects the sacrifice that Christ made not some 1960's concocted Eucharistic celebration. The Apostles took this mandate of Christ and said Mass in local ancient languages such as Syriac, Greek, Aramaic and some have argued Latin in Rome’s Western provinces of Gaul, Spain and England. The language was not important so long as the sacrificial intent remained the same. Our modern 1960's prelates already had a beautifully translated English translation of the Mass that they could use. It is apparent were not interested in this, changed the Mass, changed the words of Christ in the Canon and according to Pius V decrees invalidated the Mass. Now we have Mariachi Mass, baseball Mass, 5 de Mayo Masses, Dancing Masses, etc. We are way of the mark and paying the price.
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Posted Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:11 PM By George
Dan and Putts,
In addition to the above Dan, our prelates no longer wanted to offend the Jews and Muslims in any language. The True Mass of the Catholic Church calls us to pray for the conversion of the Jew and the conversion of the infidel Muslim. Our modern Mass does not ask for such conversions. In fact John Paul II once called the Jew our older brothers. Benedict XVI recently went to Constantinople and prayed with Muslims in the Blue Mosque facing Mecca. With regards to Latin, Latin is our cultural heritage. Many people, including myself, speak a language derived from Latin. Aside for the beauty of Latin, Latin is a language as complicated as modern English in structure, meaning and intent. One advantage to Latin, more so than Greek and Aramaic is that it is a dead language. The meaning has been frozen on time. So with Latin we have a beautiful, intricate, expressive language in which meaning remains the same. This is a perfect language for Liturgy!
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Posted Friday, May 04, 2007 5:53 PM By Greg
Believe me people, the Latin Mass will provide us with great peace and consolation. Our young people will find moral strength empowering them to repair a decadent world. He will be coming closer and closer into our hearts. I converted the first time a heart a latin hymn sung by seminarians. It was an experience that totally struck my darkened soul. I found something profound, and I will never let go of it.
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