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Published: October 25, 2007
“Team bondage and spanking for pleasure”
Gay and Lesbian Outreach at St. Monica parish celebrates 16 years
“GLO” -- the Gay and Lesbian Outreach at St. Monica’s parish in Santa Monica -- is “Sweet 16,” said the group’s Sept./Oct. newsletter. After 16 years at St. Monica’s, the group is still “‘gloing’ strong,” according to the newsletter.
 The newsletter, the first of the “season,” thanked everyone who showed up and helped out at the Pride Booth at last June’s “LA Pride.” The Ministry for Lesbian and Gay Catholics of the Los Angeles archdiocese sponsored the booth for the event, whose theme was “Our Agenda: Love, Equality, Pride.” In his message for the 2007 event, LA Pride’s president Rodney Scott announced that the weekend celebration would be “headlined by the Dyke March.”
The event’s “PrideGuide” schedule indicated that the Saturday and Sunday, June 9-10, events would include a “Women’s Wet T-Shirt & Dildo Contest,” as well as “Planned Demos and Topics,” such as “team bondage,” “rope for sex,” “spanking for pleasure,” “Mummification – Bound for Pleasure,” “Flogging,” and “99 Cent Store Sex Toys.”
St. Monica parish’s GLO’s Special Events Team, says the newsletter, was sponsoring an “outing” for the Oct. 6 Gay Days at Disneyland. Officially called “Gay Days Anaheim,” the event started in 1998 when Disneyland canceled its private nighttime parties for homosexuals. Disneyland does not officially sponsor Gay Days, so homosexuals who attend it intermix with the general public and wear red shirts (sporting the words, “Gay Days Anaheim”) “to identify one another and show our numbers,” says the Gay Days Anaheim web site.
But, though it does not officially sponsor Gay Days, “Disney has been wonderfully supportive of the event,” said the event web site. Disney staff has been “involved in all of the official aspects of the event (hotel room blocks, the Info Center), and have been very accommodating.”
Besides these events, St. Monica’s GLO has spiritual activities – such as a new Faith Sharing Group which “will draw upon different devotions such as the Rosary to form the framework for prayer and faith-sharing.” GLO, says the newsletter, hopes to found Faith Sharing Groups for young people or for couples.
Other GLO spiritual events are Evensong, “an evening of prayer, music and fellowship followed by a potluck” and an upcoming Thanksgiving dinner for the needy.
The Sept./Oct. newsletter includes a “Monthly Message from Our Lady,” which gives the Aug. 25 message from the supposed apparition in Medjugorje.
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:50 AM By JPeterman
I love the logo on their letterhead.."St Monica Parish Community". I'm a CATHOLIC, I attend THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, not a Community. These homosexuals are called to celibacy..I hope they're told as such at their St Monica Community.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:59 AM By Mark
Sodomy is an abomination. Sexual sins are sins against the Holy Spirit, whose temple our bodies are as Christians. The Virgin Mary warned us at Fatima: "More souls go to hell for sins of the flesh than any other kind."
Given all of this, it is unthinkable that a Catholic parish would promote sins of the flesh. How can Catholics willingly cooperate with Satan like this?
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:56 AM By Grisha
Mr. Holman, Mr. McPhail and Mr. Zhender: Looking at the headline, one would think that "Team Bondage" and "Spanking for Pleasure" are St. Monica parish activites (!!!) , not that they had a booth (apparantly promoting the Rosary and Evensong) at a big event where others were involved in this BDSM stuff. Again, I raise the question of why CCD feels it needs to promote all this hysteria and fearmongering when stating your opinions on homosexuality.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:22 AM By pablo
Between the Traditional know-it-all Catholics and the Roman Sodomite Catholics, and the Roman Protestant Novus Ordo-ites, it is hard for a man to take care of his woman and raise his children. After the heretics come to the Altar and desecrate it, how can we come up to the Altar and recieve without fulfilling Psalm IV? "...they have trampled upon Me..." People recieving in their hands spread the body of Christ all over the floor. Pro-homo ministers, lectors, and so on, mock God. A purification of the Church needs to be done before Mass is said at these Churches.
The homosexual group is powerful as the demon of homosexuality is a powerful one. It kills; it has killed priests and will continue to kill priests. There are witchcrafters who come into our Churches and use this demon to attack the Faithful. Their work is done in the open, as no one challenges them, save a few priests who are trying to be faithful servants. But how can we fight back when chief members of the Vatican have been found to be homosexual?
The Satanists put all their support, their where with all, behind people who will do nothing but carry out their diabolical plans. Do we have five cents to give to support a group that will exorcise our Parishes? Independant of the Heirarchy that should be doing it? We are going down in flames.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:35 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Well, here we have another perverted sodomite program officially in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. People who don't think that a good part of the Catholic Church is under control of sodomites are very sadly blind to the facts. This article did point out something new: The perverts are now using the false apparition of Medjugorje as part of their "devotional" activities. In the past they have used Our Lady of Guadalupe. Perhaps there was too much flack from the Mexican people when they could see how Guadalupe was being abused. Catholics should contact Contact Roger Mahony to complain about how our Church is being used to further the sodomite agenga.
Archdiocese of Los Angeles
3424 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90010-2202
213 637 7000
info@la-archdiocese.org
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:05 AM By Allyson Smith
St. Monica's is our pro-abortion, pro-sodomy governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's parish. In 2003, Schwarzenegger, whose positions on those topics were already well known by that time, was photographed by John O'Neill receiving Holy Communion there. (See http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/notes/1003note.htm.) I tried several times to call St. Monica pastor Monsignor Lloyd Torgerson for comment, but my calls were never returned. (Torgerson, who still pastors St. Monica's, spoke at Cardinal Roger Mahony's 2006 Religious Education Congress.)
In light of Schwarzenegger's signings of numerous pro-homosexual bills since he became governor, it's obvious that Torgerson has done a very poor job of catechizing Schwarzenegger and trying to bring him back into the fold. It's also no surprise that the pro-sodomy group GLO flourishes at St. Monica's under Torgerson's pastorate. Torgerson needs to be removed and replaced by a new orthodox pastor, and Schwarzenegger needs to be publicly excommunicated.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:52 AM By Lott
Dear Laurette, Thank you for providing the address and the phone number for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, be assured, I will call the Archdiocese with regard to the "preverted sodomite program"!! Now, what will I tell the Archdiocese, I will tell them that the
"preverted sodomite program" is a great idea and that I am very pleased that the Cardinal had the guts to reach out to this disenfranchised "preverted sodomite" community!!!!! "LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU"!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:58 AM By Frank Munoz
St. Monica's is doing it all wrong, instead of letting an organization such as GLO do business on parish grounds; they should let organizations like Sexaholics Anonymous(S.A.), Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous(S.L.A.A.), Homosexuals Anonymous(H.A.) and COURAGE who help the gay community live according to the teachings of the Church.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:10 AM By Elizabeth
I think they need to establish a chapter of 'COURAGE' in their parish.
It looks like more prayers are needed for Los Angeles, more than just for the fires!
It's just through God's grace that the San Francisco Bay Area has not had another massive earthquake!!!!!!!
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:24 AM By Hank MARSHALL
a Gain i ask do they not have the knights of columbus in this parish to stand up against this nonsense.
Hank Marshall 4th degree knight.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:07 AM By Grisha
Is it possible that this site is a front for the Episcopalian Church in a sneaky effort to lure gay and lesbian Catholics into converting?
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:13 AM By Mark
Lott -
Your choice of name is interesting... any connection to Lot in the book of Genesis, who had to flee Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed because of their sins of sodomy?
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:37 AM By Papamac
Grisha, where is the hysteria and fearmongering, the CCD simply points out that OUR CATHOLIC CHURCH is still infiltrated with the homosexual perverts who have caused so much pain to the Catholic community as a whole. We still see so called Priests bringing disgrace and setting up the Catholic Church for more lawsuits, I wonder how much the gay community has sent Mahoney and Brom and the other Bishops who are so gay friendly to pay of the enormous lawsuits that God fearing Catholics who live by the Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ have to fork over for the actions of homosexual perverts who wore the cloth, I am sure CCD would have published a report detailing your great financial support of the Catholic Church by paying of your debt instead of sitting back complaining because we hate sins of perversion which have and will continue to have a devastating effect on the Schooling and Charitable works of the Church. Love one another as I have loved you, A typical goofy statement from the gay community, Jesus loves us as no other, he absolutely DESPISES our sins, know the difference between a SOUL and the perverted lifestyle, he suffered and died the most cruel death for our salvation, not so you could live a life of sexual perversions, your absolute distain for his teachings does not fall under the category of Love as Jesus defined it. May God Bless you and have Mercy on you before judgement day.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:48 AM By Papamac
Since when are the Knights of Columbus the front line of defense againt perversion?????? Let us start with our weak kneed Bishops who support these Parishes and the Priests who set us up for more lawsuits. The Knights have no legal right to stop any of these events that are fully sanctioned by the Diocesan Bishops, a confrontation will lead to the arrest of a Knight on a felony charge compliments of the Bishop. Shortly the USCCB will have it's silly fall festival meeting for more feel good reports, no way will it touch the agenda of Bishops and Priests who continue to support gay activities such as the filth at St Monica's and Holy Redeemer, just look at who heads up the USCCB and the proclamations they have put out supporting Gay movies and abortion(Rabbi Buckner) and that tells you a whole lot. The Knights could lead Rosary festivals at these Parishes at the same time that the perverts are doing satans work, might be neat to see how Neiderauer , Mahoney and Brown and McGrath would handle that would it not. GOD BLESS
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:07 AM By Mark
Lott -
Your choice of name is interesting... any connection to Lot in the book of Genesis, who had to flee Sodom and Gomorrah, destroyed because of their sins of sodomy?
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:43 AM By garvan
As usual, the ONLY remedy faithful laity have at their disposal to correct abuses by pastor Torgerson is to simply quit giving his parish any money. Period.
To accentuate your disgust with his disregard for the immortal souls of his sodomite parishioners, drop a penny in the collection basket. Do the same if you use envelopes.
Send your money instead to Food for the Poor or the Catholic Near East Welfare Association.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:48 AM By Eric
OUT OF CONTEXT
The BDSM events were part of the the Leather Expo it wasn't the whole Pride fesitival.
Come on people
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:05 PM By Mike
I attended St. Monica’s for a while because from afar it seemed like a good place to meet other young people I could share my faith with. There are definitely some amazingly holy people there, of which I was able to meet and spend time with, but the abominations taking place there were more than I could handle. The GLO organization has a boisterous presence promoting their agenda that appears to be more of a Homosexual Dating service than a means to grow in Catholic Devotion and Holiness. Brining openly gay people together in a purely social environment is like bringing a sex addict to a brothel with a pocket full of cash. We are all tempted with sins of the flesh, though to different capacities and need to find spiritual directors/confessors to help us grow in our weakness. John Paul the Great understood human sexuality better than I think anyone else in society today, and a gentleman named Christopher West has some remarkable books and audio series explaining JPII’s “Theology of the Body” illustrating God’s design for human sexuality to be in His likeness and holiness. Check it out at www.christopherwest.com
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:07 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Hank Marshall and Papamac,
Have you seen our ad in the October 18th edition of the Wanderer, the ad that exposes the hypocricy of the Knights of Columbus "leadership"?
If you don't get the Wanderer, email me at: crcoa@dslextreme.com and I will send it to you.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:49 PM By Johannes Leushuis
Don't you wonder where all those wildfires come from in California? "do you not recognize the signs of the times? Do you not speak of them?" is one of the messages of Medjugorje, which the magazine publishes.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:47 PM By Laurette Elsberry
Johannes, Jesus warned people not to follow "signs and wonders". Phony signs and wonders are the backbone of Medjugorje.
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Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:35 PM By Maria C
I live in California and my house was very close to the fires, I sprinkled holy water around my house and our neighborhood block. I must say, that more virtues are gained through these tragedy's by the faithful. God is good with blessing us through these tough moments. Now about Medjugorje, one must be careful not to be misled because even the devil will use these false aparitions for his purpose. One must be very careful.
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 6:46 AM By Joe Kort
Do you all think that bondage festivities are only performed by gays? Have any of you never seen straight events with the bondage and S/M play at other events? Why be selective about one part of the gay community that exactly parallels what goes on in the straight community?
Joe Kort
www.joekort.com
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 8:47 AM By Joe Kort
Do you all think that bondage festivities are only performed by gays? Have any of you never seen straight events with the bondage and S/M play at other events? Why be selective about one part of the gay community that exactly parallels what goes on in the straight community?
Joe Kort
www.joekort.com
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 9:45 AM By John L. Sillasen
More nonsense, Joe Kort; those "straight" sado-masochism events are nothing but more deception and delusion ... you only imagine that the participants are not sodomites.
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 9:50 AM By Daniel
A few weeks ago the mayor of San Diego voted in agreement that Homosexual marriage was o.k. In turn, the Governor voted to allow the exclusion of the words, " Mom and Dad " out of every public school book in the state in fear that it might offend children of same sex orientation. Southern California is now burning and I can now declare that Southern California is now the new Sodom and Gomorrah !! When the saved Catholics leave the Catholic Church in search of the True Church, will any of you look back and turn into a pillar of salt ?? Do not doubt that it is God himself that punishes the one's he loves, even his own Children who should know better.......God Bless
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 10:40 AM By Christopher Zehnder
Grisha,
The events in question were advertised by the main event's sponsoring organization. They were official parts of LA Pride. If an organization had as only part of an event -- and advertised for -- a KKK demonstration or a neo-Nazi rally, would you be so tolerant and treat so nonchalantly a Catholic group's participation in the greater event? Wouldn't you wonder why a Catholic group, by its presence, would grace an event that promoted practices that are an insult to human dignity?
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Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 3:21 PM By Maria C
Daniel you don't make sense at all, The Catholic Church is the true Christain church, the sins of men are the sins of men, The church is made of both sinners and saints, why do you think Jesus went through His passion? The sick need the doctor, we all need Jesus, the great physicain.
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Posted Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:03 AM By Jessica
Wake up California from your deep sleep and smell the roses while you still can because what is happening around you is proof positive that not all that GLO's is glitter.
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Posted Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:36 AM By Grisha
Christopher - First- If LA Pride is anything like ours up in SF, the organizers are working with a broad swath of humanity where the only common denominators are 1) they are attracted to their own gender and 2) in most cases they disagree with our Catholic teachings that they are manditorally called to celibacy. Thus their constituency ranges from conservative lesbian soccer moms to the BDSM people we're talking about. My experience here is that the BDSM types, are less than less than 5% of the crowd / exhibitors. Second - I have to reject your analogy between the Klan and neo-Nazis on one hand, and the BDSM people on the other. I don't believe our Church teaches that weird consensual sex practices are on the same level as terrorism and murder. Finally, my understanding of good pastoral practice is that we "meet people where they are". Where better than Pride.Let me close on a personal note. I stopped attending church when I was 12. At age 31, a few days after experiencing a shooting situation, I answered a radio call of a possible burglary in a Paulist church. At the end if the interview with the pastor, I pulled together the courage to tell Father about my situation. Had it not been for the convergence of the shooting and the radio call, I might still be separated from the Church. Likewise, a lesbian or gay person who might not otherwise rejoin us might well return via a parish booth at a Pride Festival.
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Posted Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:34 PM By Christopher Zehnder
Grisha, the very fact that such events are, not just tolerating, but promoting ideas and actions opposed to the Catholic faith is the very reason why Catholic groups should avoid even the appearance of condoning them. I saw the the guidebook for the event, and it was filled with advertisements, shall we say, profoundly lacking in pudicity. It even had an ad for website featuring what appeared to be teen males -- the web site address had the word "teen" in it, in case you didn't get the message from the ad itself. The archdiocesan gay and lesbian ministry is listed in the guidebook as one of the booth holders -- what message does that send? "Weird consensual sex practices" are, admittedly, not as evil as terrorism and murder, but still they are evil. They pervert the purpose of sexual union, and, therefore, perverts and destroys the people who engage in them. Simply because one intrinsic evil is less heinous than another doesn't make it any less intrinsically evil -- nor less worthy of shunning and condemnation.
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Posted Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:18 PM By John L. Sillasen
Let me add that sodomy is a punishment for sin, in addition to being a gravely disordered sinful lifestyle.
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Posted Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:32 PM By George Kadlec
Some quotes, I believe, would be appropriate to the Church in California:
"The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" - St John Chrysostom
"Take away the supernatural and what remains is the unnatural" - G. K. Chesterton
"Only a live fish can swim against the current, the dead go with it" - G. K. Chesterton
"Right is right, even if nobody does it" - G.K. Chesterton
"If the shoe fits, wear it" - Unknown to me
In my opinion, Europe and Canada have apostacized and
the U. S. is going down the same path. Catholics are very fortunate to have Pope Benedict XVI at this time. Pope Benedict XVI said homosexuals end up destroying themselves. Hold fast to what is true. We have the catechism and Rome go guide us.
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Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:55 PM By Grisha
Christopher - I really don't think anyone is going to think the Archdiocese is supporting "8teenboy.com." However your question "The archdiocesan gay and lesbian ministry is listed in the guidebook as one of the booth holders -- what message does that send?" is a critical one. I would imagine the message the Archdiocese was attempting to send was something like "Information about the love of Jesus Christ and the Roman catholic Church will be available at this location." Another important question is how will the message be received. I'm sure some thought "The %$#@%^ Catholics ought to clean their own house before they barge in on OUR festival." I would hope some would respond "Hmm I haven't talked to a priest for years. I wonder if one there would really understand me. I'll check" or "Gee, I really want our baby baptized. I wonder if the Church would do it, even though she'll have two lesbian moms. I think I'll stop by and ask" By my lights these kinds of opportunities are well worth passing up the opportunity to shun or condemn.
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Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:28 PM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, only two lezbo moms? Why not three or four or a whole bunch? Same with lezbo dads, why not a whole group of 'em? Why not a mix in the home of the adopted children of male and female sodomites to raise the children with loving care? After all, it is said, at least in legend, that some abandoned children are raised by wild animals -- why not just put the "excess" abandoned children in zoos to be raised by chimpanzees or wolves?
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Posted Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:45 AM By Mike
Girsha,
1) I agree that all of us sinners need to realize the compassionate love of Christ with an invitation to follow Him, but there is a time and place for everything. As Catholics, having a presence in the LA Pride event without speaking out against fornication is a sin of omission. I don’t think the folks posting responses want to condemn anyone, but we have to lovingly condemn people’s behavior because we care for their souls. Having a presence at such an event without condemning it is as good as publicly condoning their behavior.
2) I think the Church has a responsibility to question the motives of a gay/lesbian couple asking for their child to be baptized. It is a question of motivation. Does this couple understand by baptizing their child, they are obligated to foster a life of virtue, and if their desire is to remove the stains of sin on this little soul, how will they explain to this child the reasons of their destructive lifestyle choices? How can one foster virtue while living in opposition to its core? Finally, it appears that the gay/lesbian community clearly has an agenda to infiltrate the Church and eradicate teachings conflicting with their lifestyle choices.
Yes, we are obligated to bring each fallen sheep back to Christ, but we shouldn’t do so in a way that compromises our beloved Church.
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:30 AM By Grisha
Christopher + Mike: We obviously disagree on the priority pastoral outreach should take vis-vis gay people. Let me address Mike's 2). First and foremost, lesbians will continue to have children through artificial insemination. The Church teaches that these offspring are the Children of God just as you and I are. The Church does ask for a commitment that the baptized child be raised a Catholic. It does not for example ask couples, gay and lesbian or straight and married "After the children go to sleep, if you're not too tired from a working all day, in the privacy of your bedroom, do you engage in acts the Church considers sinful?" As for explaining to our children "destructive lifestyle choices" it seems to me that most lesbian and gay couples I know have managed pretty well to avoid smoking, drinking to excess, workaholism, and sedentaryism. As for the "infiltration" question, I wish it were so. Many of my gay and lesbian family and friends who were raised in the Church w/me have either rejected religion all together or gone over to the Episcopalians. They arn't interested in us, even though they should be. Such wild claims are part of the atmosphere of fear mongering and hysteria which I continue to object to.
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:45 AM By Grisha
PS: Mike .. I believe the image we use is "lost" or "stray" rather than fallen sheep.
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:28 AM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, you continue to crack me up. "smoking, drinking to excess, workaholism, and sedentaryism": You're putting these relatively trivial actions up against one of the worst of sins?! I have done all these things plus street racing, and somehow skated through it ... but tell me the sodomites can ever skate through their sin? Remember that the Church teaches that the soul who refuses to repent is sinning against the Holy Spirit, and is thereby condemned? I wonder if the big reason behind some communities outlawing smoking is that the smoke reminds them of their destiny if they don't shape up. Yeah, that's it, huh, they're against smoking because it reminds them of Hell, which they'd rather forget about.
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:12 AM By Peter
By God, Grishna, I hope you represent the new, true face of Catholicism and Christianity. It is not my faith, nor will it ever be, but at the very least you garner true respect in the way you atttempt to meet the rest of the world half-way. The crotchety remnants of a bygone era (thank God!) that continually cling to ignorance and post hate to this web-site will ultimately be responsible for the “end-times”; not of the world, but of the faith. Good ridden, I say, the world will be better of without it; but if your posts say anything, you may be on to something new and wonderful, and I wish you the best.
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 11:23 AM By Mike
Grisha-
Thank you for the clarification…if I do something immoral in the privacy of my bedroom, it is perfectly justified. Now, back to reality. Living together outside the union of marriage is a sin, weather it is a man and woman cohabitating, a woman and woman, or man and man. Additionally, the sexual activity taking place in the bedroom is only one thing destructive to the child. Not having two parents (male and female as God created us) committed in marriage has not only been shown to have tremendous psychological affects on a person’s development, but confuses the conscience and creates an inability to refuse sin. And yes, when a parent has a child baptized, they are charged with the task of leading that child to Christ and away from sin. The rationale you present is kin to a drug addict/dealer trying to convince an easily influenced person (i.e. a child) not to take drugs while thinking it is perfectly justified for them that their behavior remains steeped in drugs; sooner or later the example they set will outweigh the words they speak. Take a look at JPII’s Theology of the Body. Essentially, the book is an extraordinary exegesis explaining the relational union of man and woman as God created us to be in his image and likeness. God created man and woman to come together in marriage, meaning any fornication done outside marriage is a desecration of our humanity as we choose a lesser animalistic behavior over divine union. How is it that the Church can ever justify fornication and why would some people want Her to changer Her teachings?
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Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:33 PM By John L. Sillasen
Peter, you're displaying your lack of knowledge of humanity. Just an hour ago I was sitting in a barbar's chair having my hair cut by a Mason, and conversing amiably with him. The posts made on this site which you bear false witness against are not hate rants ... they are relaying the Word of God, which has always instructed man to avoid sin, one of which is sodomy. This, Peter, is an act of love; whereas, sodomy is an act of hate and idolatry, in that you place some idea above God.
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:34 AM By Peter
Hate is relative, St. Sillasen. Punch me and call it love? Treat your women the same way? I find your "acts of love" repugnant; please don't do me any favors.
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:44 AM By Peter
Of course, you're right, though. I keep forgetting that this is a Catholic web-site. I should probably be more respectful of the fact that prejudice and intolerance are integral components of the faith. My bad.
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 1:07 PM By Mike
Wow Peter. Why is it the Church makes you so uncomfortable? Additionally, when Christ demanded people to stop sinning, was he showing acts of hatred? Or, if I tell a friend to stop doing drugs, am I showing hatred? You are sure confused and cannot distinguish hatred from love and the desire to one day see you in heaven. It seems to me that you are showing hatred towards the church because she confronts your lifestyle choices.
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 1:27 PM By Peter
Not my lifestyle choices, per se, but certainly she confronts humanity and the human condition. Many here have asserted that the "human condition" is the result of original sin and the fall from grace, and that all propensities toward sin are a residual from that original sin of sins. I, on the other hand, believe that the current human condition is as it was meant to be, and to hold that state in contempt based on the writings of men who lived 2000 years ago, all from a different time and a different place, is positively absurd. Inspired by God, perhaps, but filtered throught the mind of man, certainly. Until someone - of God herself - can filter out what is truly of God from that which is of man, it is man who has defined sin. Jesus may have defined sin - I'll give you the benefit of doubt that he actually existed - but Jesus was, after all, a man as well. Until that time, I decide for myself . . . personally, I think the concept of "sin" is a crock and nothing more than a tool derived by the Catholic heirarchy to keep the flocks in line . . . but it's not the faith that makes me unconfortable, it's the manifestation of the faith in its followers. You should listen to yourselves from outside of the box . . . this is love?
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:29 PM By Mike
So, you are telling me that the church exists to repress the desires of man and it is a conspiracy started by the Apostles 2,000 years ago. This would make the old testament is also a conspiracy as well. What about natural law? Sin is a selfish desire that perpetuates because it is addictive. God created everything on this earth for man out of love for man and so man can come to know God. We as humans sin when we rationally choose lesser goods, things of the earth over God and His love. When the things of this world become an end and our ultimate goal is physical satisfaction (satisfaction of the self in the earthly lifetime) we are choosing the lesser goods God created over God. When we are steeped in sin we think people disagreeing with our behavior are hateful persons picking on us. What I don’t understand is why you hate the church so much. We all have our lustful desires of this life because it provides temporary satisfaction and momentary pleasure. The desire of the church is to help us fight the temptations of our earthly life that can become addictive behaviors and self absorbed desires that will remove our desire for charity and love. I am sorry you feel the church and anyone part of the church hates you. I hope and pray you can find peace and joy in this life.
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 5:03 PM By WB
You said, "I think the concept of "sin" is a crock and nothing more than a tool derived by the Catholic heirarchy to keep the flocks in line". -- I find this a very extreme position that is basically moral anarchy. It's one thing to criticize Catholicism, but quite another to offer a "sinless world" as an alternative. How do you arrive at any sense of justice without the concept of sin? Are you suggesting that all manner of human behavior should be "tolerated" by society?
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Posted Thursday, November 01, 2007 5:07 PM By Mike
So, you are telling me that the church exists to repress the desires of man and it is a conspiracy started by the Apostles 2,000 years ago. This would make the old testament is also a conspiracy as well. What about natural law? Sin is a selfish desire that perpetuates because it is addictive. God created everything on this earth for man out of love for man and so man can come to know God. We as humans sin when we rationally choose lesser goods, things of the earth over God and His love. When the things of this world become an end and our ultimate goal is physical satisfaction (satisfaction of the self in the earthly lifetime) we are choosing the lesser goods God created over God. When we are steeped in sin we think people disagreeing with our behavior are hateful persons picking on us. What I don’t understand is why you hate the church so much. We all have our lustful desires of this life because it provides temporary satisfaction and momentary pleasure. The desire of the church is to help us fight the temptations of our earthly life that can become addictive behaviors and self absorbed desires that will remove our desire for charity and love. I am sorry you feel the church and anyone part of the church hates you. I hope and pray you can find peace and joy in this life.
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