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Published: September 26, 2008
“It is sinful”
Text of Bishop Jaime Soto’s address to National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries
(Editor’s Note: Below is a transcript of Bishop Jaime Soto’s keynote speech to the National Association of Diocesan Gay and Lesbian Ministries meeting in Long Beach on Sept. 18 as published on the web site of the Diocese of Sacramento. See a firsthand account of the speech and audience reaction in today’s edition, “At least five members of the audience walked out.”)
When we meditate on the person of Jesus, we often call to mind the many ways that Jesus cared for people. In all the many instances in the gospel when people come to the Lord Jesus with their needs, he fed them, he healed them, he forgave them, and he saved them. This can oftentimes lead us to the conclusion that Jesus always said “yes.” He always gave people what they wanted. He was an agreeable person.
That is not always the case in the gospel. A couple of weeks ago, we heard in Sunday’s gospel the story of a difficult encounter between Jesus and Simon Peter. In the sixteenth chapter of Matthew chosen for the Twenty-second Sunday of the Year, Jesus begins to lay out for his disciples the pending passion and death that awaits him in Jerusalem. Simon Peter is a little put off by the subject of Jesus’ conversation concerning the suffering that awaits him. He tries to persuade the Lord that this is not a good idea for him or for his followers. What Jesus described was not the cruise for which Simon Peter had signed up. When Simon Peter first responded to the Lord’s invitation to come follow him, this was not on the itinerary.
Jesus says “no” to his friend, Simon Peter, in no uncertain terms, “You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” The words of Jesus to Peter must have shocked Peter. This is not the agreeable guy he had come to know and follow. He probably felt like prophet Jeremiah who in the first reading that same Sunday said quite bluntly, “You duped me, O LORD, and I let myself be duped.”
Jesus says “no” to Peter’s request so that he can say “yes” to Peter and to us with his sacrifice on the cross. Jesus does not give in to the expectations of Peter or the expectations of others. He has firmly planted in his heart the expectations and desires of his Father in heaven. He says “no” to Peter and challenges Peter to take up a greater “yes,” to take up his cross and follow him.
Paul had the same thing in mind when in the Letter to the Romans he says, “Do not conform yourselves to this age.” Paul reminds us that we are not to conform ourselves to the fads and fancies of our society. We are to conform ourselves to Christ.
We can easily give in to the temptation to go along in order to get along. We can easily be duped by the popular ideas and trends that surround us. “Everybody does it” can become reason enough to think it or do it ourselves. Like Peter we can think that what Jesus teaches us is too unrealistic, too unreasonable. Like Peter we can convince ourselves that we know better than the Lord. We may even try to negotiate with Jesus, like Peter does, for easier terms.
We see this especially in the area of sexuality. So much of what we see and hear every day can lead us to a distorted sense of our sexuality. Sexuality has been reduced to a matter of personal preference and personal pleasure without responsibility and with little respect for others. We can lose sight of the profound dignity of the human person who shares in God’s love and creative work through the chaste expression of one’s sexuality proper to one’s calling in life.
We are surrounded by a “contraceptive culture” that has reduced the procreative act to simple recreation absolved of any responsibility.
The deceptive language of “pro-choice” ignores the consequences of the choice for abortion that does violence to the most innocent and leaves traumatic scars on many young women.
What is a particular concern and alarm for us in California as well as others across the country is the bold judicial challenge to the longstanding cultural and moral understanding of marriage as a sacred covenant between a woman and a man. Our own efforts to restore common sense through the ballot initiative, Proposition 8, are portrayed as bigoted and out-of-touch. The irony is that what we propose is most in touch with the nature of families and what is good for the welfare of all.
That we find ourselves at this time, reasserting the basic moral and reasonable understanding of marriage, means that much has changed in the popular perceptions of sexuality and common notions about marriage. While we work to pass Proposition 8 this coming November, it is important to remember why we do this. Like Jesus, in the sixteenth chapter of Matthew that I cited, we are saying a strong “no” to the California courts and to many who support the court’s wrong-headed decision. This “no” is not rooted in bigotry or bias. It is firmly rooted in a greater “yes” to a truer, more authentic appreciation of love’s calling and love’s design for the human heart.
The nature of love has been distorted. Many popular notions have deviated from its true destiny. Love for many has come to mean having sex. If you cannot have sex than you cannot love. This is the message. Even more destructive is the prevailing notion that sex is not an expression of love. Sex is love. This reductio ad absurdam deprives sexuality of its true meaning and robs the human person of the possibility of ever knowing real love.
Sexual intercourse is a beautiful expression of love, but this is so when intercourse is understood as a unique expression intended to share in the creative, faithful love of God. As the Holy Father, Pope Benedict, elaborated in his first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, “Marriage based on exclusive and definitive love” – between a man and woman – “becomes the icon of the relationship between God and his people and vice versa. God's way of loving becomes the measure of human love.” (DCE, n. 11) Sexual intercourse within the context of the marriage covenant becomes a beautiful icon – a sacrament – of God’s creative, unifying love. When sexual intercourse is taken out of this iconic, sacramental context of the complementary, procreative covenant between a man and a woman it becomes impoverished and it demeans the human person.
Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman in the covenant of Marriage is one expression of love to which the human person can aspire, but we are all called to love. It is part of our human nature to love. We all have a desire to love, but this love can deviate from its true calling when it exalts only in the pleasure of the body. Pope Benedict said in the same encyclical, “The contemporary way of exalting the body is deceptive. Eros, reduced to pure ‘sex,’ has become a commodity, a mere ‘thing’ to be bought and sold, or rather, man himself becomes a commodity. This is hardly man's great ‘yes’ to the body. On the contrary, he now considers his body and his sexuality as the purely material part of himself, to be used and exploited at will.” (DCE, n. 5) This is not our true calling. The human desire to love must lead us to the divine. Looking again to the Holy Father’s encyclical, he says, “True, eros – human desire – tends to rise ‘in ecstasy’ towards the Divine, to lead us beyond ourselves; yet for this very reason it calls for a path of ascent, renunciation, purification and healing.” (DCE, n. 5)
This path is the path of chastity. This is very true in marriage. It is also true in all of human life because it is the nature of all authentic love. We are all called to love. We are all called to be loved. This can only happen when we choose to love in the manner that God has called us to live. Love leads us to ecstasy, not as a moment of intoxication but rather as a journey, “an ongoing exodus out of the closed inward-looking self towards its liberation through self-giving, and thus towards authentic self-discovery and indeed the discovery of God: ‘Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it’ (Lk 17:33).” (DCE n. 6)
Sexuality, then, as part of our human nature only dignifies and liberates us when we begin to love in harmony with God’s love and God’s wisdom for us. Chastity as a virtue is the path that brings us to that harmony with God’s wisdom and love. Chastity moves us beyond one’s desire to what God wills for each one of us. Chastity is love’s journey on the path of “ascent, renunciation, purification and healing.” Chastity is the understanding that it is not all about me or about us. We act always under God’s gaze. Desire tempered and tested by “renunciation, purification, and healing” can lead us to God’s design.
This is true for all of us. It is also true for men and women who are homosexual. We are called to live and love in a manner that brings us into respectful, chaste relationships with one another and an intimate relationship with God. We should be an instrument of God’s love for one another. Let me be clear here. Sexual intercourse, outside of the marriage covenant between a man and a woman, can be alluring and intoxicating but it will not lead to that liberating journey of true self-discovery and an authentic discovery of God. For that reason, it is sinful. Sexual relations between people of the same sex can be alluring for homosexuals but it deviates from the true meaning of the act and distracts them from the true nature of love to which God has called us all. For this reason, it is sinful.
Married love is a beautiful, heroic expression of faithful, life-giving, life-creating love. It should not be accommodated and manipulated for those who would believe that they can and have a right to mimic its unique expression.
Marriage is also not the sole domain of love as some of the politics would seem to imply. Love is lived and celebrated in so many ways that can lead to a wholesome, earnest, and religious life: the deep and chaste love of committed friends, the untiring love of committed religious and clergy, the profound and charitable bonds among the members of a Christian community, enduring, forgiving, and supportive love among family members. Should we dismiss or demean the human and spiritual significance of these lives given in love?
This is a hard message today. It is the still the right message. It will unsettle and disturb many of our brothers and sisters, just as Peter was unsettled and put off by the stern rebuke of his master and good friend, the Lord Jesus. If the story of Peter’s relationship with Jesus had begun and ended there, it would have been a sad tale indeed, but that is not the whole story then nor is it the whole story now. Jesus met Simon Peter on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. He said with great love and fondness, “Come, follow me.” Peter would not only continue to follow the Lord Jesus to Jerusalem. Despite his many failings and foibles, he would eventually choose to love as Jesus loved him. He would die as martyr’s death in Rome, giving himself completely for the one who loved him so dearly.
The teaching of the Church regarding the sacred dignity of human sexuality is not a rebuke but an invitation to love as God loves us. The Church’s firm support of Proposition 8 is not a rebuke against homosexuals but a heartfelt affirmation of the nature of the marriage covenant between a man and a woman. We hope and pray that all people, including our brothers and sisters who are homosexuals, will see the reasonableness of our position and the sincerity of our love for them.
For that reason, we should let the words of St. Paul haunt us and unsettle us: “Do not conform yourself to this age.” In so many ways we can allow ourselves to be duped, fooled, by the fads and trends of this age. It is far better that we allow ourselves to be drawn into the ways and the manners of Jesus. The Lord Jesus challenges us as he challenged his friend, Simon Peter, to not conform to what is fashionable and convenient. He has so much more to offer us. Do not think as others do. Let us think as God does. He shows us the way, the truth, and the life.
Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 2:03 AM By Aaron
I would gladly give my life on a battlefield to support Bishop Soto's right to free speech... however, I do not for one minute believe that the church has a right to impose its beliefs in public policy matters. Freedom of religion is protected by the U.S. Constitution. But the Constitution is a secular document that also assures equal rights for everyone; such is not the case with Prop. 8 which would forever put discrimination into the CA Constitution. In many states, gays cannot visit their partners in the hospital or arrange a funeral - because these "rights" are available only to married people. Similarly, gays cannot file joint tax returns, sponsor their foreign partners for immigration, or receive social security survivor benefits. These "rights" are only for married couples. The church has the right to define marriage as being between a man and a woman for their membership. The church does NOT have the right to impose its beliefs on everyone. Please vote NO on Prop. 8 so EVERYONE can continue to have equal civil rights!
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 3:11 AM By Phil
Congratulations to the Bishop. An excellent analysis of the issue.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 3:24 AM By BJ
Excellent. I hope all politicians of all parties receive a personal copy, particularly those 'Catholic' politicians who reinterpret Catholic teachings to suit their target voting block.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 4:54 AM By David
So, will this website issue an apology to the bishop, given how they treated the announcement he would be speaking here?
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 5:13 AM By Ivan
Kudos to Bishop Soto. May his courage inspire his peers.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 7:18 AM By Anonymous
I'd like to see the faces of those who commented negatively upon Bishop Soto under the "Birds of a Feather?" article. This is a lesson in humility and prudence regarding judgment.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 7:39 AM By Lisa T.
WOW! I'm pleasantly surprised. I didn't expect that and I'm sure the people who invited Bishop Soto didn't expect it either.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 7:42 AM By Margie Reilly
I see the Holy Spirit of God on fire in this gentle yet firm approach to the issue of sexuality. Thank you so much, Bishop Soto for yielding to the Holy Spirit of God in a very scriptural and reasonable manner. May all those who castigated you on this website be equally swift in supporting you in your courageous stand.
I will be using this speech in the Catholic Churches to gain support for Proposition 8 which declares that the CA constitution be amended to make marriage an institution between one man and one woman.
Our friends, relatives, coworkers, and fellow travelers on the planet with same sex attraction are in need of our love, our prayers, our deep concern for their souls. They are hurting. They feel ostracized. They feel rejected. They admit that they are aware of the Church's stand on same sex attraction. Yet, they invite a Catholic Bishop to speak to them, hoping to hear that he blesses their deviation from the truth.
Once again, I thank our co-adjutor Bishop Jaime Soto and look forward to this good shepherd's long service to the Sacramento Diocese as Bishop in the near future. God has sent us a shepherd, folks! Rejoice, and be glad.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 8:17 AM By John
Wow! This is a fairly bold statement for Bishop Soto to make in front of a homosexual pride group!
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 8:21 AM By Harry
Bishop Soto has shown himself to be a worthy representative of Christ, proclaiming the gospel in spite of opposition, and doing so with love and gracefulness.We in Sacramento, especially, should thank God for him, and pray that he will have the strength to continue to do God's work.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 8:30 AM By Fr. J
Well done. A very nice invitation to real love that also defends the truth.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 8:52 AM By Vincent
Praise God for sending us a worthy successor to Bishop Wiegand. I'm so thankful that I live in the Diocese of Sacramento. We have again been blessed.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:02 AM By c
Wow! How inspiring. I am happy for Sacramento.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:05 AM By Theresa
The loving, brave, beautiful words of Bishop Soto to the NADGLM Conference were nothing but the Truth. God bless him! There is freedom from homosexuality - with and through Jesus Christ.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:20 AM By Thomas Szyszkiewicz
Wow! What a bold expression of the truth -- and not in front of the most receptive audience.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:55 AM By Fr. M.P.
Wonderful. The truth was told. Aaron uses the same false argument of imposing views. Rather Aaron wants to impose his views on everyone else. Nature itself "imposes" its view on the meaning of sex, not whatever wild ideas flow through a lustful brain. Look at biology, Aaron, rather than lust.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 10:41 AM By Rick DeLano
Aaron:
It is you who seek to impose your views here. A quick glance at the complementary structure of the biological organism of the human male and female will disclose even to you, given a bit of effort, the shatteringly serene and simple truth that whatever you wish to call homosexual relationships, they most certainly are not "marriages".
Please, everybody, fast, pray, work, and donate to Prop 8.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 10:52 AM By Heather
I am so tired of the 1st Amendment being misquoted. It states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". God created and blessed the sacrament of marriage between one man and one woman not politicians.The constitution and the creation of our Country relied heavily on God and natural law.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 11:01 AM By Fr. Richard Perozich
The church does not have a right or the power to impose its beliefs, and neither does the state have the right. The state has been violating the concept of separation by imposing its laws through judges, through legislation on us. Everyone has a right in the political process to PROPOSE. The church has NO power to IMPOSE, but the state does and has done so wrongly. The Church does have the right to oblige Catholics, to inform them to live chastely and not in debauchery of sex outside of the sacrament of marriage between man and woman.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 11:18 AM By Geen
Bishop Soto writes, "We all have a desire to love, but this love can deviate from its true calling when it exalts only in the pleasure of the body." As a proud PRACTICING Catholic and lesbian, I am saddened that Bishop Soto and some of those commenting still do not understand that having been created is God's own image applies to ALL of us. Being homosexual doesn't equal a sole or primary focus on sexual pleasure. Still, so many people cannot understand that. Why all the focus on sex?
The Bishop also states, "married love is a beautiful, heroic expression of faithful, life-giving, life-creating love." I couldn't agree more and this is why, I, as a lesbian Catholic in a committed relationship, raising four children, also desire at least the legal recognition of that title.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 11:24 AM By Joe
I am so proud of Bishop Soto's keynote address to the gays and lesbians in Long Beach on September 18. His speech, word for word, should be disseminated to all Catholics in America and especially to priests and bishops. It takes courage to speak as did the good bishop. His words were kind, forceful and truly the work of Providence. Now we Californians have a bishop who is not afraid to speak out
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 12:02 PM By Duane Bambusch
Amen, Amen, Amen. How courageous he is to speak the truth and not hide behind political correctness: afraid of offending someone. A Bishop with hair on his chest, good on him.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 12:56 PM By Jack P
The Truth in Love if ever it was spoken.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 2:11 PM By Aaron
Fr. M.P. ... NOBODY argues with the biology of men and women, the necessity for procreation. But as you may (or may not) know, marriage isn't just about sex. Marriage is about communication, caring, devotion, commitment, a hug when you need it, mutual admiration and a willingness to give up all for your spouse. Sex takes probably one or two hours per week, at best. It's important as an act of intimacy and keeps the gears lubricated - BUT IT ISN'T THE ONLY REASON FOR MARRIAGE!!!!! The other 167 hours per week are about being devoted to one another in sickness, health, 'til death do us part. No, Tomas and I can't have kids-SO WHAT? Lots of couples can't have kids. What is so threatening to you about gay marriage? It is legal in Canada, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, South Africa & other locations. Governments legislated gay marriage so that EVERYONE HAS EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS! This is a civil matter: it has NOTHING to do with the religious Sacrament of Marriage. In the countries where gay marriage has been made legal, there has been NO IMPACT on traditional marriage, on the church on anyone. It only grants EQUAL RIGHTS TO ALL. Please tell me what you don't understand about that????
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 2:40 PM By Aaron
Fr. Richard Prozich...I agree with you that the Church has the power to oblige Catholics to live chastely, etc. BUT, I completely disagree that the state has wrongly imposed anything on the church....Gay CIVIL marriage is legal in CA... so what has that done to the church???? The answer is that gay civil marriage has done NOTHING to the Catholic church! You are still free to prohibit anyone you so choose from entering the sacred Sacrament of Marriage religious rite. The Supreme Court very specifically expressed that opinion when they approved gay marriage. What I don't get is how the Church can meddle in affairs that have NOTHING TO DO with the church, its beliefs or principles. This is only a civil matter. Gay marriage is legal in Canada, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain and South Africa. In those countries, gays have equal rights. In the USA (land of the Free with Liberty and Justice for all?) gays DO NOT have equal rights. I personally believe the Church should be campaigning against Prop. 8; in its wisdom, the Church should understand that EVERYONE should be treated equally under the law... This isn't about lust, this isn't about anything but equal rights as pointed out in my original comment on this page.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 3:17 PM By Anne T.
I am thanking the Lord Jesus he gave me the grace not to make a comment about Bishop Soto before this, but to take the attitude "Wait and see". I have not been disappointed. Thanks be to God and may He continue to bless and uphold Bishop Soto for his courageous and faithful stand.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 3:26 PM By Dabel
KUDOS to Cishop Soto!! What a brave and courageous man!
I will be praying for him...
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 3:30 PM By AJ WEST
Bravo! It is about time a CATHOLIC bishop address the poor misguided sodomites. They want so much to be approved in their life-style that they have created this organization to assist them in their attempts to subvert the moral law of Christ within Christ's own Church. So when a humble bishop is invited to speak at one of these gatherings and quietly lays down the truth which cannot be surpressed. It is wonderful. We can only hpe that these poor souls will be touched in their in most hearts with the blessed truth of Christ for their salvation. God Bless Bishop Soto.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 4:22 PM By Anonymous
Aaron, the continual move to legitimatize same-sex unions forces an unnatural and disordered state of being upon the most vulnerable of our citizens: children. Children are the victims of homosexual adoption and homosexual propaganda in the public school system. As some of the best scientific research has shown and continues to show, same-sex attraction is tied to various sociological factors. As children are exposed to abnormal same-sex relations, it is feared that the disorder will spread among those who would not have wished it upon themselves.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 4:30 PM By Jay S.
Grisha? Hellooo. . .where are you?
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 4:54 PM By Fr. M.P.
Aaron, you DO argue with biology. Certain organs were created by God - the natural law as we call it - for specific functions. Homosexual activity is a totally unnatural use of these body parts (which I won't detail here). So much so that 68%+ of AIDS cases are homosexual males, and many other are from AIDS tainted blood transfusions. The civil law may try to call a cow a pig, but that is a lie. Just because you say something or think something doesn't make it true or normal. Only recently after the past two decades of pro-homo propaganda is there questioning on what no one questioned for centuries. And science also shows that children ALWAYS do better when both a father and mother are there for them. Homosexual behavior has nothing to with the natural. Faith need not even enter into the discussion, but rather it sheds light as to WHY nature is the way it is. Science can see how the body parts work without faith. There is never a "right" to the unnatural. Don't lie to us. Why cannot some yell "fire" in a crowd in jest; isn't that just free speech? No, because it is a lie, and it causes dangerous consequences. Homosexual is a lie to nature and biology, and has dangerous consequences. It is an activity of sinful humans who go against nature (and, of course, God), all for the vice of lust. That's what I understand. Following your perverted "logic", one can think up anything, call it a "right" and then society is "obligated" to provide it. What utter nonsense.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 5:29 PM By bchan
Beautiful. Bravo to Bishop Soto for this lucid, sympathetic and courageous address.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 5:37 PM By Michael
Thank you Bishop! Your words are beautiful and of the Holy Spirit. May God continue to bless all your work.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 6:01 PM By Ann
Aaron, it is not a matter of the Church imposing its beliefs on the secular culture. It is a matter of the Church explaining the natural law which the Church adopts as its own because it comes from the Creator himself. The Church can demand obedience to this law for its members.
Homosexual acts are so clearly disordered that it takes a great deal of denial or pride or cultural brainwashing to deny it.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 7:30 PM By Janet Baker
Aaron said, "I would gladly give my life on a battlefield to support Bishop Soto's right to free speech... however, I do not for one minute believe that the church has a right to impose its beliefs in public policy matters." The Church cannot impose its beliefs; therefore, Aaron's use of that verb, "impose" is disingenuous. Replace that word with "articulate" and you'll have a correct sense of what so many anti-Christian folks think. The use of that perjorative word "impose" is nothing less than an attempt to intimidate Christians from having their proper voice in the arena of ideas. Christians have just as much right to articulate their views in all venues of public life - and that includes poltical arenas. Make no mistake about it. There are attempts to stifle Christians. God bless this bishop for speaking out. I wish only that more American bishops had that much courage.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:45 PM By Charles O'Connell
List of some of those who jumped to rash judgment about Bishop Soto in the September 15 article "Birds of a Feather": Quanta Cura, Margie, Maryanne Leonard, ann, Laurette Elsberry, SacCatholic, mariam, Dan, marcum. "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak." - Matthew 12:36
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 9:47 PM By JPeterman
Geen, I'll pray for you. I'm not sure what you mean by "practicing lesbian" but if you engage in sexual relations outside a validly ordained marriage you are violating the commandments. If you are engaging in these acts and taking the Holy Eucharist at mass you are committing a terrible sin which you must confess. You must also immediately stop this behavior, failure to do so jeopardizes your soul. This is not me preaching, just the straight facts from the Catechism. I'll pray for you, all the best in Christ's truth! JP
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 10:35 PM By Blackie
Hi, Aaron: Hope you can understand that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus, Our Lord and Redeemer, founded, does not teach "beliefs" at all, but eternal TRUTHS divinely ordained, established and revealed. A "belief" can be mistaken; truth is always right. Thank you for listening. Please ask the Holy Spirit to help you consider and see. God bless.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 10:38 PM By Rachel
OK. Well, I see that the Bishop's speech did indeed have boundaries beyond the quote in the article. I'd really like to see more discussion of chastity, Catholic chastity. There's some really good Catholic stuff on chastity, but I don't think it's stuff people come across going about their ordinary business. I think the notion of chastity that most people have, Catholics included, is primarily shaped by fundamentalist chastity movements. And I do feel that kind of "chastity" is, well, unhealthy and not proper to God's design. I could go into it more, but suffice it to say I believe it to be reductionist. It's grape juice for wine.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 10:41 PM By Naomi
Thank you Bishop for putting it so clear. God Bless you.
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Posted Friday, September 26, 2008 11:42 PM By Greg
Green quotes the bishop, "married love is a beautiful, heroic expression of faithful, life-giving, life-creating love." and says 'I couldn't agree more and this is why, I, as a lesbian Catholic in a committed relationship, raising four children, also desire at least the legal recognition of that title.'
I am curious. What is a committed relationship? What does that mean?
What does it mean to be a Catholic?
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 5:13 AM By Rick
Dear Aaron,
What the opponents of Prop 8 are not being honest about is how they are presently and will continue to seek to deny the "religious freedom guaranteed by the Constitution" to anyone who disagrees with their diordered deisres. If anyone doubts this, just look at Massachussets where the oldest adoption agency in the state has been forced to close, or more recently and pehaps more noteworthy, the California case of Guadalupe Benitez v. North Coast Woman's Care, wherein the California State Supreme Court continued its war against religion by declaring that equality trumps liberty of conscience.
Prop 8 is not just about Marriage, it truly is about whether or not we will continue to have religious freedom in this state and in our country.
I pray Aaron, that you and your gay and lesbian brothers and sisters will come to grips with what really is at stake here, and will choose to support religious freedom as much as you claim to support freedom of speech.
God Bless Bishop Soto for his courage and his love, and God Bless you Aaron.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 5:40 AM By Aaron
Fr. M.P... PLEASE do not call me a liar because of a difference of opinion/beliefs!!! I also observe that what YOU say does not necessarily make it true.... Both of us KNOW: homosexuals have walked the earth for a million years-long before St. Paul penned his thoughts. Homosexuality is a NATURAL phenomenon.scientifically observed across ALL mammals; e.g., male penguins frequently form lifetime relationships even to the point of raising baby penguins abandoned by their mothers. It seems an anomaly challenging biological fitting of private parts, but it is a NATURAL phenomenon - just as in the case of humans...Re. AIDS. AIDS is spread by promiscuity/dirty needles. Without promiscuity it would die out... Re. gay parents: my cousin and his husband adopted 2 otherwise impossible to place orphans. While perhaps not as ideal as mom/dad, clearly better than lifetime orphanage and clearly better than 40%?? of USA children being raised by single parents!!! Re: lust...like MANY other gay couples, Tomas and I have been in a 100% monogamous/lifetime commitment for 8 years. We cherish each other, communicate, laugh, cry together. You say it is all lust?? WRONG. Of the 168 hours each week, ~166 are mostly mundane... eating, sleeping, fixing meals, going to work, grocery shopping, mopping floors. The hour or two of weekly intimacy help lubricate the gears, but as with millions of other gay couples, our lives are not at all different from married straight couples. There are NO dangerous consequences/ perversions. It would be perverted if we TRIED to be with a woman. Though it may drive you crazy, we have accepted how God made us and live a life of harmony...there are no victims here, other than the fact that we do not have equal civil rights and sometimes must deal with bigots/ homophobes!!!!
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 6:28 AM By Fr. Richard Perozich
God created two sexes, two genders, male and female. Our Catechism 2333 teaches each person must accept his sexual identity as male or female and all that accompanies it, oriented toward the opposite sex for union and procreation. Those with same sex attractions (ssa) cannot get around this by redefining themselves as "gay", "lesbian", "bi", "transgender", and then lobbying the state for rights. Where such rights have been granted, the church and its ministers and faithful Christians have been jailed, fined, and oppressed including Canada and Europe. The state is oppressing everyone when it invents and imposes rights to sex with anyone, anytime, and then reinvents God's plan of marriage. Catholics with ssa are taught to live chaste non genital friendships in catechism 2359, and can do so with God's grace. Chaste friendships are wonderful, but they are not marriage.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:12 AM By Robert
It seems that I probably misjudged Bishop Soto. I tended to see him as an Orange auxiliary and thus as an extension of Mahony. (Bishop Brown was in the seminary with Cardinal Mahony and is often seen as one of Mahony's cronies.) Bishop Soto's words were kind, but most of all, charitable. It is not charitable to allow someone to persist in sin without saying something.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:13 AM By Charles O'Connell
Rachel: If you would put your money where your mouth is, and seriously study Pope John-Paul II's 'Theology of the Body', you would see that the Church perfectly exercises the virtue of Temperance in its teaching about the true meaning of Chastity. We live in a sex-drenched society. Our children are sexually abused by remote-control from Hollywood. Anyone who isn't influenced by the dominant society's sexual obsessions is living in a monastery with other contemplatives who are likewise insulated. Rachel, you are in no position to make sound judgments about what is "moderation" in matters of chastity education. Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye when you don't see the two-by-four in your own?
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:54 AM By Mae
Thank you Bishop Soto for defending the teaching of the Catholic Church and for providing the laity with an example of courage to speak the Truth with love.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:18 AM By Mike B.
In his loving manner and words, Bishop Soto adresses the crux of the Gay Agenda while pastoring homosexuals and lesbians. The Gay Agenda is obsessed and fixated on 'their rights' to enforce their lifestyle onto society as the norm. This is cultural and spiritual self-destruction on the bedrock of socieity, which is marriage of a man and woman.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:20 AM By ann
I too, must apologize for saying that Bp. Soto gives credence to the homosexual lifestyle by his presence at the conference. I could have said that better by adding "unless he uses his presence to proclaim the truth". That he did and my thanks for that. What is really amazing is that only five walked out.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:49 AM By Rick DeLano
Aaron:
It appears that your argument involves the assertion that since penguins are claimed to practice homosexual marriage, then humans ought to as well.
Gee, and I didn't even know they had same sex unions up there among the penguinsbin Antarctica.
I suppose progress is marching onward in ways I had simply not yet sufficiently internalized.
I appreciate the opportunity to better understand your position, and the way your thinking works, Aaron.
Please, everybody. Stop and consider what our civilization will be like, if we adopt the guidance of those who look to dumb beasts as the exemplars of human civilization.
Yes on 8!
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 11:19 AM By Fr. J
Aaron, someones beliefs are going to win out. So why should yours win? Why can't we work to see our beliefs win? I hope that California, like my state, will ban gay marriage.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 12:06 PM By Janice
Thank you Bishop Soto, for speaking God's Word. You are a true Shephard and Sacramento will be blessed by having you serve there. God bless you and keep you.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 4:28 PM By Aaron
Fr. J. Your ideas and beliefs have already won in the Church. By the same token, perhaps your personal beliefs should not necessarily be imposed on society at large.
Fr. Richard::I am unaware of any faithful Christians or pastors that have been jailed, fined or otherwise oppressed in Canada or Europe where gay CIVIL marriage has been approved. I would (very seriously) like to know how/why/where this occurred. I can only think it might have been because of physical violence to someone or something.
Rick:: Your jr. high school comments add nothing to meaningful discourse or exchange of ideas.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 4:38 PM By Aaron
Fr. Perozich::: The governments have not reinvented marriage. The holy Sacrament of Marriage in the Church has remained as it always was. The only thing that changed in any of these countries is that CIVIL marriage (a legal relationship between 2 people) has been opened up to gays and lesbians -ONLY so everyone has equal rights - so Tomas can come visit me in a hospital critical care unit or arrange my funeral.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 5:05 PM By A
Bishop Soto is in good company; they walked out on the Lord Jesus Christ also when he said the Eucharist was His body and blood. Rejoice and be glad, good bishop, for great is your reward in heaven.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 7:37 PM By MarkF
A LITTLE SECET
I lived as a gay man for over thirty years before returning to the Church and giving up my same-sex attraction, and I've learned something recently.
We loyal Catholic hear a lot from gay activists how gay people really are just normal regular people, no different from straight people. But we know in our hearts that this isn't true. We also hear a lot from straight people how they have all these gay friends who are just like normal people.
How do we answer that with the truth?
One, gay people never tell straight people what gay life is like. They don't talk about the random hookups with total strangers, the cruising in public bathrooms, the drugs, the sado-masochism, mental illness, suicide, instability, violence, child abuse, incest. Straight people who are friends or relatives know enough not to ask about what goes on, and gay people know enough not to tell straight people about how dark gay life is.
Gay people's sensibilities are so perverted that they accept deviant behavior as normal, so when they're asked if they're normal, they will say yes. Here's a real typical story from last week. I was talking to a gay friend last week. He had just met up with a random stranger in the morning, who he said he "f@#&'ed his brains out." He said he'd never see the guy again, didn't know his last name, or for sure really if he had AIDS or not. He knew nothing about the man. He described this sleazy encounter in glowing terms. He was happy with it and was curious as to why I was troubled by it.
So when homosexuals talk about being happy and normal, this is what they mean.
Gay people will also lie to the mainstream community when their homosexuality is threatened too. In a discussion like this where their own homosexuality in on the line, they never will tell the truth about what gay life is like.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:21 PM By Anne T.
Aaron, you and I know that Tomas already has those "rights" in California. All you have to do is give him the power of attorney over your healthcare, etc, so-called same-sex "marriage" is not necessary. You just want society to make it socially acceptable, which it never will be. And don't tell me heterosexual couples get everything "free", because we don't.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:31 PM By JLS
Aaron, Canadian govt has made life miserable for a protestant pastor and a Catholic priest for their comments, wholly Scriptural and traditionally Christian, and that includes arrest time, and fine time. The priest seems to be fighting it somewhat successfully in the Canadian imitation of a legal system, but the protestant pastor may have been defenseless to continue his ministry as the Gospel would have him do. Those are the most noteworthy cases, and as anyone knows everything else follows suit (enjoy the pun while it's fun, Aaron). *** As for penguins in same sex marriages, I have not heard of that. Is that a reference to the character in The Blues Brothers movie wearing the nun habit? *** There is nothing free or right about homosexual hook ups; those things are all enslaved and wrong. They wanted their way with the angels of God, and they continue to want their way with all others.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 10:42 PM By Rick
Aaron,
I recognize tht in some states, gay and lesbian couples are prevented from certin hospital priveledges. But, in California, you do have all the rights of married couples through "civil unions." Prop 8 does not give you any new rights. That is why all the NO on 8 commercials just tug at the heart strings and avoid the facts. I am sure that you are wrong about the outcome. If Prop 8 fails, any of us who say that homosexuality is wrong, will be guilty of a "hate crime", and priests and pastors will go to jail for refusing to "marry" two people of the same sex. That is what the radical leaders of your movement want - an end of religious freedom. Sorry! Prop 8 MUST pass, if we are to retain our religious freedom, in spite of the fact that you feel that it is discriminitory; it isn't.
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Posted Saturday, September 27, 2008 11:58 PM By Maria C
John Sillison where are you?? We miss you tons.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 12:00 AM By Grisha
JAY S: Oops! This was Posted in the other story's page:
Jay S. Thank you for thinking of me. What do I have to say about this? I think Bishop Soto accurately articulated the teachings of the Church here. However, I don't believe he has made a case that this automatically translates into voting for Prop. 8. Given that a man who was thought to be homosexual was killed in a gay bashing in his own diocese recently, it would have been a good thing if he had also spoken against homophobic violence.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 12:22 AM By Maria C
I sometimes withdraw from calling a person "gay" like people call them, I call them "confused" because sin causes them to label themselves away from God's natural law. Now lets say we do call them "gay" or "homosexual" due to that sinful lifestyle they freely have chosen to live by, if that helps identify that particular sin then that is ok to call them as such as long as we understand that it is still a sin in God's eye. Since God is the creator of all, the almighty, (the Alpha and Omega, meaning the beginning and the end) then if we choose to be faithful then we must continue to speak in truth, love the person and hate the sin that separates us from that perfect unity with Christ, from sanctifying love! Who are we then to preach and condone such evil lifestyle! We are no one, yet one must understand that although we hate the sin, we still have love and mercy for the confused person for whatever reason has brought them to embrace that lifestyle, we still love that individual and if we truly seek the salvation and repentance of others as well as ourselfes because we are sinners too, then we have a duty to pray with love for our lost brethren, and ask our Lord to help perfect in us as well what is undesirable within our selves as well and offer up any sufferings that we may endure for the salvation of all sinners. That is unselfish love, to care enough and not condone evil lifestyles, sins that ultimately will bring us destruction to our salvation. One must ask "will this ultimately bring me eternal salvation?" If the answer does not come clearly due to that person's own temptations and fleshly desires, getting on one's knees, soul searching with zeal and geniune sincerity and confession, God will show His faithful the way. That is why prayer is key to helping those around us, prayer with love for their conversion, prayer is the Christian's weapon to that miraculous help for those in great need, to help guide and bring a person to repentance in Christ!
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 1:20 AM By George
Aaron, if you don't like what you're getting, stop doing what you're doing. Oh, male penguins share responsibility with their eggs & young. They have guy penguin friends who also hang out with them while their female mates are feeding. They don't have sex with each other - nor do other mammals. As for all the rights you claim have been denied you, move to California. After prop 22 passed (defining marriage between a man and woman) Gray Davis redefined homosexual domestic partners as having actually more rights than married (or single) heterosexual couples. So your rights are more equal than mine - You just want to invade the domain of heterosexuals and impose your form of imitation/artificial marriage on all. Don't forget, marriage is a religious institution, "domestic partnership," which have all the same rights, and more, is secular. What else do you want?
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 1:24 AM By Rachel
Hi Charles,
I thought I'd say I think you are addressing a different Rachel, as there is more than one of us I've belatedly noticed. But if there was something you saw in my post, considered in a vacuum of other posts... "moderation in chastity education" (as if there isn't, which is what I think you were saying) - this is not my theme. My theme is getting the CATHOLIC voice in chastity education MORE out there.
Back to you.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 8:55 AM By Harry
I congratulate Bishop Soto on his call to ADGLM to return
to the Christian principles that should inspire them. The events surrounding his talk illustrate how far we can stray from the truth when we start letting the world influence us instead of Christ.
Aaron, just how is the Church trying to "impose its beliefs in public policy matters"? Is it insisting that gay marriage be forbidden because the Pope says so, regardless of what the people think? I hardly think so. That would be imposing. What the Church is doing is proposing (not imposing) to society that gay marriage is detrimental both personally and socially. She is giving clear and coherent reasons for saying this, and she is asking people to consider these reasons when deciding public policy on gay marriage. That is entirely consistent with our way of government in this country. Nothing "impositional" about it. Every individual and organization has the right to make proposals and suggestions regarding any issue and ask society to consider them. Our society would not survive if people did not participate in it's government in that manner.
By all means disagree with the Church's proposals for public legislation, if you think you should, and give your reasons why they should not be accepted. But do not accuse the Church of some type of dictatorial imposition, inconsistent with a free society, when she speaks on this or any other issue.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 9:43 AM By Brad
Prop 8 takes away NO rights whatsoever from homosexuals. California civil unions are unaffected by the proposed amendment. Fear, deception, and intimidation are the primary tactics being deployed against Prop 8.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:14 AM By Adeodatus
For Bishop Soto's grace of speaking the truth, Deo gratias. Charity requires fraternal correction. And let us not forget that the Church says "no" to heterosexuals as well... as a heterosexual male, there are things that I am tempted to do that the Church says I must not. And so I seek to obey, because, through God's grace, I acknowledge the lordship of Jesus Christ over my life. Sometimes the truth is difficult to hear, but it is for our own good. Viva Cristo Rey!
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 12:10 PM By Sac Cath
Doesn't take much to win the affections of the posters on this site. Believe me you may priase Soto now, but he is no friend of tradition. He has thrown you a bone, and that's all you will get; so be content.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 1:25 PM By Sillasen
Maria C, I'm in the catacombs.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 2:58 PM By Aaron
Enough of this. Gay marriage in Massachusetts, Canada, Spain, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark & South Africa has not hurt traditional marriage one bit. Say what you may, but that is the absolute truth. It makes the Vatican crazy, but so what? It does nothing to change church policies, it does not threaten the religious Sacrament of Marriage. The Catholic church can go on as it has for a couple thousand years. What it does is provide just one more step towards ultimate change in Federal Laws so that everyone is treated equally under the law. That is ALL this is about. Please stop the red herrings.....
To MarkF:: if your description is the way you ran your life as a gay, it is a darn good thing you declared celibacy.....if you think the things you described do not go on equally in the straight community, you are DEAD WRONG!!! Promiscuity knows no bounds;; it is not restricted to gays.....I have already described my life with Tomas and our 100% monogamous 8 year partnership. It has NOTHING to do with your description -- though I know this stuff happens --- in both gay and straight communities.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 3:59 PM By Julie Z
Jesus was right when he told Paul that he thinks like that of man instead of "that of God's nature." Paul was a very sexually disturbed man, and that is why he continually tried to affect the sex lives and the love lives of others who had and still do have a better understanding of God's nature than he or Bishop Soto. God's nature doesn't "think," God's nature only works out of necessity and the balance of life. Basing life on the works of a sexually inhibited man that separates himself from God's nature is, in my opinion, a very self interested and self determined mistake of ignoring the nature of God, just as the act of ignoring the fact that God's nature creates other animals that are homosexual as well as humans, and for the obvious reasons of keeping overpopulation from occurring. Obviously, Paul completely misunderstood what Jesus meant, and that is why the Christian Bible is so full of contradictions, such as those contradictions of Paul.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 6:53 PM By Mary
Aaron, Bishop Soto is NOT imposing his beliefs on the public, he was speaking about the beliefs Catholics are supposed to uphold. He was invited to speak to a group who claim to be Catholic. What you, and they are doing is attempting to infer that he and other Catholics do not have a right to expect that those who claim the faith, uphold them.. it's as simple as that, no matter how inconvenient it is for you.
What I am seeing, are those who want to take up the trappings of the faith, and discard what they find uncomfortable for them personally, what's more, they want to demand that others be forced to discard those beliefs as well. The discrimination is on your, and their part.
No one is forced to be a Catholic. If this homosexual organization does not wish to be Catholic, they are free to leave the faith. They do not have the right to attack and besmirch our faith, by demanding that we abandon Christ's teachings.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:58 PM By JLS
Aaron, you keep spinning religion into some pseudo science. The Church opposes calling sodomite couplings anything good, not because of some evidential hooplah that it has not hurt anything, but because the Church is God's throne on earth and God rules over creation, and He says sodomy deserves eternal death. Only one way out, Aaron, and that is Jesus Christ, Whom you must bow to and confess as your Lord and Savior.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 8:04 PM By JLS
St Paul was not a "sexually disturbed man"; on the contrary, St Paul lived an exemplary life according to the Law as taught by the Pharisees. His legal actions against Christians, including executing them, was his attempt to do the Will of God; his fervor for God was then accepted by God, and St Paul was honored with the apostleship of converting the gentile world to Christ, which he faithfully did.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 9:42 PM By Lot
Two men cohabitating is not a marriage, it is unnatural and spreads death and disease. Sodomy has always been a felony in our legal system until Clinton's appointees overturned this in 2003. Marriage means one man and one woman procreating and raising children. It is rooted in human nature itself and has nothing to do with religion. Reality check please! The misleading talk about rights is a deception; if the people pushing this stuff get control watch out.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:36 PM By Harry
Aaron there is no evidence from any source that St. Paul was a "sexually disturbed man" wherever you got that idea.
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Posted Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:11 PM By Aaron
Julie Z...I completely agree with you. Mary..I have NEVER said the Catholic church should abandon its beliefs. My singular point is that the church should live with its beliefs but allow other Christians to follow a path that is different. The church has no business trying to force passage of propositions that create CIVIL laws that take away the rights of others, particularly when these laws have absolutely NO IMPACT on the church or its members... Taking the point further, in Iran/Iraq/Saudi Arabia, gays are BEHEADED as instructed in the Koran. I suppose if the Bible so instructed, Catholic bishops would be suggesting the same. In this case, Muslims are IMPOSING THEIR BELIEFS on EVERYONE,.. I suppose there to be some Catholics who would gladly behead gays since the Bible says we are to be put to death. I ONLY want the church to keep its beliefs to itself and its members, and let us have equal civil rights. Vote NO on Prop. 8!!!
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 12:26 AM By Thaddeus
Aaron, don't delude yourself that your partner is faithful to you. A gay man can no more remain monogamous than an alcoholic can drink in moderation.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 6:24 AM By Scott+
In the whole sexuality discussion, focusing on Scripture is not to concede reason to the other side. The idea that reason is equal to scripture is not valid. Reason is used to understand Scripture and Tradition it does not stand alone. I have generally taken the tact that if Scripture is clear, not to engage in the discussion using reason. Nevertheless, there are good and shall I say secular reasons that homosexuality is a social problem. Homosexuality defeats comradeship. I with this suggest that comradeship be a very necessary social function. This is one reason the homosexuality is not good for the social structure. There are others.
Anglican Priest.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 7:16 AM By Fr Phil Bloom
Well done, Bishop Soto. Speaking the truth with love.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 8:07 AM By dmc
Bishop Soto should be commended for doing his job. His moral courage should be an example for all to follow. Sometimes the truth is just that...the truth. If you embrace the truth...it will surely set you free. May God continue to bless the good bishop and those like him who proclaim the Gospel with conviction.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 8:55 AM By CAT
Jesus created the church, giving it the authority to teach all nations, to bind and loose, and promised the Paraclete to guide it in all truth. God wishes all to be saved, and no other name can save you except Jesus and His church. If you reject the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church, you are rejecting none other than Jesus himself (consider Luke 10:16: Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.) . Fr. Richard Perozich, the church does not impose, it merely teaches. It was given the divine right to call all to the only way to heaven: Jesus and His church. I pray that all Catholics, those who have put on Christ through baptism, and especially those given the extraordinary grace of the sacrament of Holy Orders, defend Jesus Christ and His Church on all He taught and preached to the apostles, who courageously handed on His teachings to us today.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 10:13 AM By Fr. Joseph
What a breath of fresh air! A true shepherd and successor of the Apostles. Congratulations to his excellency for defending God's truth. Ad multos anos!
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 11:03 AM By Eileen
Aaron, Did you write the words "Enough of this" above? Aaron you are lustfully spinning excuse after excuse to rationalize your disordered desire for men. Aaron, God created you to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world so you could spend eternity with Him. Stop serving your lust. Start serving God who loves you perfectly. If it helps you, stare at some of the photo depictions of the torments of hell. Then Aaron, look in a mirror and say to yourself, "Enough of this"!
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 12:08 PM By Andrew
Amazing example of charity from this bishop. God bless him, and may his words be welcomed by open hearts.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 1:54 PM By Fr. Joseph
It would good for all of us (straight or Gay) if we begin to lust after someone to say to ourselves, "She (or he) was created for the glory of God not for my sinful pleasure".
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 2:14 PM By John_K
Go to a woman's health site, separate of all "gay" issues, and look up anal sex - it will tell you it is dangerous. We are not "naturally" designed for it. We are designed for male-female sex without harm. All the hours in the week you claim to be loving your partner are irrelevant, Aaron. The one hour you put him at risk for grave harm to satisfy your lust defines the quality of your "love" for him. And by the way, female rats "naturally" eat their children. We are men and women made in the Imago Dei.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 2:35 PM By Bob
Everyone: While I applaud Bishop Soto for his courage in speaking as he did to the NADGLM group, I wish to add my points to the discussion. First of all, while I lived in San Francisco, I lived at St. Dominic's Church and was staff liaison to that parish's AIDS Support Group; I discovered that I had some prejudices to get rid of, and some things to learn about the gay lifestyle from the group. What I experienced is that members of the gay community are not unlike myself and others in the straight community seeking intimate relationships. Many of the members of the group became my friends, some even close friends as they dealt with the progression of the disease and shared their lives with me.
The Church doesn't deny that the most important aspect of the marriage relationship is the intimacy between the two partners, but it does continue to believe that the second important factor in any marriage is an openness to procreation. This is where the issue lies that distinguishes the Church's view on a sacramental marriage vs. a civil marriage.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 2:49 PM By TS
Brilliant. Just Brilliant. This is what needs to happen more often.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 3:36 PM By Colleen
Aaron --
In love and compassion, I tell you that you are wrong. A religion that is only private, that can only apply in the domestic, internal sphere is not freedom of religion at all. It is making religious belief a hobby -- some people like to worship God, some people like to go skydiving, some people knit -- whatever floats your boat. The Church absolutely must speak truth to power -- whether that truth is palatable to all or most or any. I myself see your points and believe that there should be some accommodation to ensure that basic human decency and kindness is extended to homosexual couples in such situations. However, that does not extend to making marriage a free for all. The government should not be in the business of "approving" anyone's sexual activity -- that is a moral matter and is between a human being and God. However, the State does have a very strong interest in promoting marriage as a lifelong relationship between one man and one woman for the purpose of creating the most basic building block of society -- a family. The fundamental misunderstanding here is thinking that if the State doesn't "approve" gay marriage it doesn't approve homosexual love (or the love of a man for more than one woman (polygamy) or any number of loves that human beings could develop for other people and things). That is not the State's business. Promoting stable healthy families with a mother and father is the State's business - perhaps its most important business because from this all else flows.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 6:54 PM By BethSioux
The Bishop is perfectly within his rights to explain what the Catholic Church's belief's and standards are--in fact the Church owes it to be 110% crystal clear on what it expects it's members to believe in and live. If you call yourself a "Catholic" and do NOT believe and practice it, you are NOT a Catholic and if you are a politician, and you aim to get the"Catholic vote" by saying "Hey, I am a Catholic, just like you" and then do NOT vote as a Catholic in good standing, it is a type of misrepresenting yourself, and I would, as a Catholic voter, feel ripped off with who I trusted to vote for.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 8:16 PM By Bill Murphy
praise God! Thank-you Bishop Soto - our innocent children need to hear the truth.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 8:37 PM By JLS
Bob, sounds like they got to you.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 10:19 PM By The other Mike
Father Soto clearly speaks the truth. It's no wonder the homosexual mafia wants to silence him. His truth shines light on their culture of death.
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Posted Monday, September 29, 2008 10:36 PM By Angelina Gonzales
Marriage to one is a "civil union" to another. God looks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Marriage as defined by God cannot change. Marriage, property rights, inheritance, etc. have been set forth by God in the Holy Bible. Civil governments (western) have patterned themselves after these. Now, parties in or desiring to form civil unions seek to establish these rights for thermselves. Render to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and to God the things that are of God. The state's decrees cannot change God's word on the matter. Nor can we who enjoy the rights and privileges bestowed by the state on our "marriages" seek to deprive others who have forged a civil union for whatever purpose. Bishop Soto does a wonderful job of explaining what "marriage" is to the Christian. Now let the state define "civil union." And let's not forget those whose union is considered "common law."
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:15 AM By Louis E.
I am not religious (nor am I an atheist).Homosexuality is an issue on which the Catholic Church happens to be absolutely correct.The government has no business requiring that misbehavior be treated as "equal" to responsible behavior.
It is simple common sense that when a species is sexually dimorphic the two sexes exist specifically for each other.This is over and above any issues of procreative intent or what sex acts are indulged in...that the partners ALWAYS be of OPPOSITE sexes is the foremost of all prerequisites for a sexual relationship.That lesser animals are unable to comprehend this is not germane to reasoning humans,and a homosexual's refusal to remain celibate is no more worthy of respect or acceptance than an alcoholic's refusal to remain sober.As a secular theist,civil marriage is the only form open to me in conscience,but anywhere same-sex "marriage" is legal it is not worth marrying at all,as the relationship is officially "equal" to one that is automatically worthless.Civil marriage where you can choose what sex you marry is worth less to society than public highways where you can choose what lane to drive in!
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:48 AM By Aaron
Thaddeus: Seems you are speaking from first hand experience when you say that I can never trust Tomas (and Tomas cannot trust me) to be monogamous, because gays are incapable of monogamy. Perhaps that's what happened to you, but it hasn't happened to us...
Human beings (gay or straight) sometimes think about having sex with someone else-it is human nature...people with character don't yield to those thoughts without first thinking about what the impact would be on their spouse or partner... The 50% divorce rate would suggest that promiscuity abounds in the heterosexual community...To all on this board-(particularly those like Bob whom I personally congratulate for at least taken the opportunity to meet gay people0 thanks for the lively exchange. Don't think for a moment that I am here to discourage traditional families, one man, one woman marriage and having kids. Anyone who concludes such from my comments is not reading the printed word.....BUT God makes both heterosexuals (90%?) and others (10%?)...The 10% must have equal rights in a country that calls itself "the land of Freedom & Justice." That is why a NO vote on Prop 8 is appropriate.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:53 AM By BJ
Aaron (#1) is indeed correct. Would those who refuse to accept Christian/Catholic teachings( especially high profile 'Catholic' politicians) please openly admit their stubborn 'rejection' of the Word of God and stop kidding themselves and leading other souls astray by constantly trying to 'reinterpret' religious teachings to suit their particular 'demands'.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:38 AM By frank
Colleen, if you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran. The existence of gay couples does nothing to damage opposite sex couples and it's not your place, or Bishop Soto's to tell gays, as citizens, what to do.
The Church will lose this battle, as it should, but, more importantly, it's lost the war in California because the state supreme court has ruled that gays and lesbians are no more or less entitled to civil rights protections than religious people. Catholics had better learn to live with it or get used to being prosecuted and sued until they lose that supremacist attitude.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:45 AM By ChainSawDad
I would like to add that the Church teaches that any time persons intentionally separate the unitive act of sexual intimacy from the procreative aspect of a covenant relationship between man & woman then spiritual violence is done to the individuals.
Bishop Soto will have to suffer much from many of his colleagues for his courageous act. But God himself will bless him for this great act of charity... the act of proclaiming the truth in love.
This is not about “protecting rights”… it’s about creating rights out of thin air which are not rooted (as most other rights are) in natural law. It is also about getting the taxpayer and ratepayer to pay for the consequences of that even though they morally object. How draconian is THAT?
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:22 AM By Xpihs
homosexual unions are of no benefit to the state and should not be promoted by the state. the business of the state is the common good.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:13 AM By Catholicnerd
Axios, Axios, Axios! He is worthy, He is worthy, He is worthy! May God grant Bishop Soto many blessed years on the throne in Sacramento.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:24 AM By JLS
frank, you're simply wrong. The whole of creation is God's, and the Church is His instrument on earth to discipline and teach His will. There has never been a power on earth or in the spiritual realm which is able to rule over the Church. But the Church rules over all others, regardless of the level of their rebellion against God.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:52 AM By Eileen
Frank tells Colleen, "The Church will lose this battle, as it should". May I be frank with you Frank. The Church will never lose this battle or war. God is in charge, We have His promise that the gates of hell will not prevail. We also have the words of Our Blessed Mother ,"In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph! Will there be a fierce battle for souls Frank? Absolutely. We see this battle every day. We all have free will to choose good or evil. It appears that the battle for your soul has been won by the forces supporting the gates of hell. Since we have Our Lord's infinite promise that those dark forces lose the spiritual war, what does that say about your common sense Frank? You are working for the wrong side. The dark side does not win. You have totally lost your reasoning and moral compass. You are not remotely interested in being pleasing the God. You are being dragged down by a leash and collar aound your neck. The tags on your collar read..."Slave of mine because of lust" You are working for the father of lies. Frank, you were born as a child of God. Please do not throw away your eternal inheritance for 'anything' that is temporary. Frank, do you know a good Catholic priest who you could get spiritual guidance from? Frank, do you want to go to heaven? Frank, do you know that the devil has fooled you into your supremacist attitude?
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:53 AM By Redtabby
Way to go, Bishop Soto. You are a real bishop and a real MAN. I am proud of you.
Yes, God's will is often very difficult, especially in our corrupted modern society, but adherence to it will make you much happier in the long run, even in this life.
A parting thought: If only five actually walked out on Bishop Soto, maybe there is a lot of hope for the ones who remained. Anyway, let us pray that he has planted a seed in the hearts of those who heard him, a seed that may spring forth at a favorable time. I know from my own life that I have not always been 100% in agreement with the Church on some issues, but I did hear the truth, and later when I had lots of time to ponder it, decided it was the best way to go.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:05 PM By frank
Colleen, if you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran. The existence of gay couples does nothing to damage opposite sex couples and it's not your place, or Bishop Soto's to tell gays, as citizens, what to do.
The Church will lose this battle, as it should, but, more importantly, it's lost the war in California because the state supreme court has ruled that gays and lesbians are no more or less entitled to civil rights protections than religious people. Catholics had better learn to live with it or get used to being prosecuted and sued until they lose that supremacist attitude.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:25 PM By Gina
Frank, the Catholic Church will not lose. In the end, you will see that Bishop Soto spoke of the truth. And at the end of the day, I'm hoping that the Holy Spirit was able to touch at least one person at the conference. Chastity, chastity, chastity!
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:24 PM By Brian
This speech was not only about homosexuality, but about the Church's teaching on sexuality in general. If you read the whole speech, the Bishop reasserts the teaching that premarital sex between men and women is as sinful as homosexual sex for the same reasons. Do not categorize this as an 'anti-gay" speech but rather one that advocates chastity for all Catholics, whatever their orientation.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:47 PM By JLS
frank, you just cannot see the will of God, due to your total focus on your bodily satisfactions.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:02 PM By JGB
BRAVO!!! Bishop Soto spoke the truth. What did these dissidents expect him to say? The Church has pandered to these people long enough. They won't stop until the Pope himself says that homosexual relations are equal to married heterosexual relations.
Frank; the Bishop has EVERY right to call homosexual acts sinful, especially in this context. He was invited to talk to an allegedly Catholic gathering about the subject.
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:21 PM By Vt Moreno
It's confusing why some things in the Bible are accepted by the church and others are not? They point out the wrongfulness of homosexuality, yet they ignore those passages having to do with heterosexual relationships.
I'm wondering why the Catholic Church doesn't fight to end divorce. Or deny adulterers from re-marrying? Aren't these in the Bible according to the holy words of God?
I guess the Church can pick and choose what it wants and ignore other commandments?
This hypocrisy is one reason why a lot of people have turned away from the church... you can't pick and choose God's commandments - you either accept it all or you don't!
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Posted Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:36 PM By JLS
No, Moreno, you're making it up. You evidently do not know who the Church is, nor what She does ... they stuff you're drumming up is what some people do and say, but who are not acting as members of the Church. Just because some man is a priest does not mean he does what the Church teaches, nor acts on behalf of the Church. You need to discern things more accurately.
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Posted Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:35 AM By Dai Yoshida
Vt Moreno: You got this all wrong. The Bible comes from the Catholic Church not the other way around. You need to study early Church history. I'm not sure where you get your information on the Church position on divorce and adultery. Are you currently Catholic?
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Posted Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:57 AM By Father Francisco
Dear Vt Moreno, the Church is not picking and choosing the commandments to keep, even the most hostile media angrily admit knowing what the Church's teachings are. But in that big crowd of the Church we have men of integrity, heroes like Bishop Soto, we also have sinners - some of them humble, seeking the truth and salvation through their own conversion, others who in their pride want to change the Church to suit their behavior and are lying and faking (e.g. about their marriage). And then we have a big crowd of weaklings, even among priests and bishops who don't dare to say anything. I am scared seeing the numbers of false witnesses and spinners in some of the annulment processes - even parents and priests. The weakness and conspiracy of silence are our real problem. God bless Bishop Soto for teaching us how to stand up!
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Posted Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:13 PM By Shenandoah Brown
Kudos to this courageous bishop who has the guts to stand up and tell the Real Truth like it is. We need more bishops of this calibre. May God bless him abundantly.
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Posted Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:42 PM By Father Francisco
Dear Vt Moreno, the Church is not picking and choosing the commandments to keep, even the most hostile media angrily admit knowing what the Church's teachings are. But in that big crowd of the Church we have men of integrity, heroes like Bishop Soto, we also have sinners - some of them humble, seeking the truth and salvation through their own conversion, others who in their pride want to change the Church to suit their behavior and are lying and faking (e.g. about their marriage). And then we have a big crowd of weaklings, even among priests and bishops who don't dare to say anything. I am scared seeing the numbers of false witnesses and spinners in some of the annulment processes - even parents and priests. The weakness and conspiracy of silence are our real problem. God bless Bishop Moreno for teaching us how to stand up!
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:12 PM By AZGrandma
Thank you Bishop Soto, for boldly teaching the faith. God's word is clear and there is no gray area. There are those of us who do not want our ears tickled, but want to be taught and corrected according to God's Holy Word. Our desire is to live in the truth, not wallow in darkness. God's word brings light and life.
The enemy is alive and well and is still lying to us, just as he did in the garden. Our free will allows us to follow the great deceiver into the pit of hell or follow the teaching of our God in His Holy Word!
It is the Church's business and duty to teach and lead us by the power of the Holy Spirit, to the truth. If we want to feel warm and fuzzy, then we need to realize it won't happen in the Church....since we are all sinners, we will feel the discomfort of being corrected and convicted of our sin...that is just the way it is.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:38 PM By Andrea
I just want to echo what Colleen said (Sep. 29) that the state's business should be about promoting stable families between a married man and woman. Since "sexual revolution" of the 60's, all we have gotten is increased abortion, STD's, pornography, child abuse, homosexuality and fornication. So much for "progress" and "rights".
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 7:07 PM By Dave
Thank you Bishop Soto for lovingly and clearly stating God's love for all sinners and reminding us that are focus is to be on the Lord Jesus and His divine plan for marriage. God's word is the same today as it was in the beginning and will remain so for all eternity and todays popular perceptions regarding marriage do not alter God's word or His divine will and plan for marriage between a man and a woman. Your courage to stand in the gap is commendable and a shining example for other leaders in the church today to proclaim the same message. May God continue to bless you in your work.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:07 PM By Henry Nduaguibe
This is a timely message for all. It is a loving call back to the true, God-given foundation.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:33 PM By Georgia
I, also, want to thank Bishop Soto ,for"speaking the truth in love". He reminds me somewhat of a modern day John the Baptist, a voice crying in the wilderness, saying "repent", yet in a very reasoning way. I pray there will be seeds of truth planted in their hearts, that grow into much fruit for the Kingdom of Heaven. May we also be faithful to do our part as well and truely love as we have been loved by our Savior Jesus Christ.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:38 PM By Henry Nduaguibe
This is a timely message for all. It is a loving call back to the true, God-given foundation.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:47 PM By Pat
For those who think this is a religious intrusion on the rights of men and women, think again. This is simply the clarification of a social issue, stated from the perspective of one sector of our society. If I was an atheist or agnostic, and thought that the passing of proposal 8 made good social common sense, would that make the issue an anti-religious abomination? Perhaps my agreement with the man/woman status of marriage is simply a biggoted blight on the fine state of california? Or may it not be the affirmation of the fact that a man and a woman come together in marriage (in most cases) to raise children and that society has a vested interest in the promotion and welfare of those unions and the offspring created from those unions? When children are created outside of marriage, other social means of support are available (ie WIC programs, Food stamps, etc...) to assist in supporting those children also. Tax deductions (number of dependents and deductable expenses) are afforded to all tax payers, regardless of marital staus. A health care proxy statement would be adequate for hospital visitation rights and responsibilities for those desiring those rights to non-married partners. This is a statement of how we wish to order and support our society, regardless of who agrees or disagrees with it.
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:24 PM By Russ Smalley
It is greatly refreshing to read Bishop Jaime Soto’s keynote speech to the National Association of Diocesan Gay and Lesbian Ministries and how he stated very eloquently and to the point the uncompromising love and truth of the Scriptures as they pertain to human sexuality.
I applaud the Bishop for his courage to stand for the Truth of God's Word and at the same time showing to this community of homosexuals that God and he loves them.
Thank you Bishop Jamie Soto for being a role model for us all in this area!
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Posted Thursday, October 02, 2008 10:37 PM By Dora
Thank God for the Holy Spirit's inspiration to Bishop Jaime Soto and God bless the bishop. All rights are God-given, whether some people wish to acknowledge that or not. He is the Master and Great Giver of freedom--freedom to choose Him, not a sinful lifestyle. 2+3 will never be six and homosexual relationships will never be right and should never be legitimized. I have read the language of those who began this sinful lifestyle. They have stated they want to have what my husband and I have--a marriage designed and blessed by God. They will never have it. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. They want to redesign marriage. We pray for everyone to vote NO to all homosexual unions, marriages, relationships, special privileges, and any and all venues that legitimize them or put them in a favorable light. For it is our responsibility as Christians to reach out to a sinner in love, not to help push him/her into hell. Thank God for bishops like Bishop Jaime Soto. May God have mercy on this country for all our sins! Pray to end the culture of death, of which homosexuality is a big part. No life comes from these relationships!
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 5:25 AM By Fr. M.P.
Lot also told the Sodomites (those inhabitants of Sodom) not to do what their homosexual lust drove them to desire. That was right before fire fell from the sky and, in God's Justice, eliminated those obstinate sinners. I think this speech is prophetic, especially in timing, given the recent so-called "gay marriage" fiasco. Pray for Mercy.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 5:35 AM By Daniel
Marriage between same sex partners is simply an oxymoron. This thought is not just supported by the bibical teaching of the church as expressed by Bishop Jaime Soto, but by the vast majority of Americans. This issue was resolved by the majority in California in the definition of marrage between a man and a woman. But judicial system trumped the will of the people and Prop 8 is expressing the will of the people against judges leglating from the bench.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 6:29 AM By sonya
Good for the Bishop. It is high time that all the Churches stand up and deliver the speech that he did. How brave he was. God will reward him.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 7:16 AM By Gilbert
Thank you Bishop Soto for speaking in love and humility. God bless you.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 7:47 AM By will u. stop?
since when is the constitution a secular document? I will take great joy in the day that all those left of center realize the truth about the "separation of church and state." IT DOES NOT EXIST IN THE CONSTITUTION, NOR THE BILL OF RIGHTS, NOR THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 8:06 AM By Mav
A clarion for the truth. Go Bishop Go! This is about truth isn't it? Not about church, desire, lust, laws, etc. Just because one country has a law to "off their heads" doesn't make it right. Just because you think other countries have laws for gays to be married, doesn't mean it's a right and just law. I know of a Canadian pastor who had his pulpit taken away, forbade to speak what the Bible calls sin and sent, by court order to "be re-educated." Wow! and you think the gay community will let me have free speech? To articulate the truth of the Bible? Think again. Their agenda is big and is set to take away my freedoms. How do I know? To my regret, I was a homosexual activist in the 1980's and now I have to fight the agenda today. Before you make your 50% divorce rate statement, how about the lesbians who haven't been married but a year, and are now getting divorced? Monogamous? Normal lifestyle? don't think so. The Bible says take the rebellious son outside the city and stone him....If he won't repent and stop sinning. There are no labels with God and no degree of sin. Sin is sin and all sin great and small seperates us from God. This is about truth. There is only one unforgiveable sin and homosexuality is not it. The truth is, God is perfect without flaw and He is all wise, to say God made 90% hetro and 10% gay, well, that's not the truth and God doesn't make mistakes. Kudos to you who spoke on the "real" lifestyle. I left my life of being gay in 1988 and will maintain the argument with you..."if people really knew what being gay was about" they would not hesitate to vote yes on 8. Better than that, this wouldn't be a topic today. Some need to stop confusing lust with love. I love penguins, but I not gonna poke one.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 8:17 AM By Julie Suver
This is one of the most loving, truthfull and beautiful speeches that I have ever seen on this particular issue! Jesus loves the sinner but not the sin wether it's sex outside the marriage or homosexual etc. All is sin!! What courage!!! Please keep speaking up for the truth Bishop Soto and may those of us from other denominations learn from your courage!!!! I am a single parent and this was inspiring to me to keep myself apart from the world and away from sexual sin in the form of written and visual as well as physical.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 9:22 AM By Lori
Aaron 1.yes a Canadian pastor was fined ($7000) in 2008 after speaking against homosexuality. Also a Swedish pastor was sentenced to prison several years ago for preaching a sermon against homosexual behavior. In Ontario, a Christian ministry was fined $23,000 for insisting that its employees be practicing Christians that uphold the biblical view of marriage. And recently in New Mexico a Christian couple was fined for refusing to photograph a same-sex committment ceremony. Yes, hate laws do infringe on free speech and rights of relious beliefs!
2. Also, you said that gay marriage has had no effect on the Countries that have legalized it. Look at the statistics! Denmark and Sweden for example have had significant declines in marriage rates and the majority of children are now born out of wedlock (69% in Denmark). Ask the children if homosexual marriage has had an effect!
3. The penguin story has been highly proliferated by activists as proof that homosexuality is natural. The story of the two male penguins "living together" at the Manhattan zoo was completely spoiled though when a female penquin was introduced. 4. Only 1-2% of the population is gay! (the 10% statistic was cited by the infamous "sex researcher" Alfred Kinsey who got his numbers from a male prison population) and was proven false years ago). 5. The CDC cites a high % of homosexuals as having been sexually abused. Maybe the behavior is rooted in experience? Incidentally there has not been one reproducible study showing biological causes. 6. Dr. Robert Spitzer (pro-homosexual) showed through research (2003) that for many people it is possible to change homosexuality through reparative therapy if it is desired. 7. A study in the Netherlands found that the avg. homosexual relationship lasted only 1.5 years and that gay men have an avg. of 8 sexual partners per year outside their "Primary" relationship.
9. I'm not Catholic, but I think Bishop Soto's words have wisdom and truth. Blessings to you
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 9:32 AM By Cal
God's design for marriage and sexuality is perfect and wonderful. It's not that hard to figure out that God made our bodies the way He did, a marriage unity in Christ. Homosexuality behavior is sinful and shameful in God's eyes. That is why the gays and lesbians are in an uproar over gay marriage issue, God will never ordain this sin. Even if marriage is legal, the shame of the sin will never go away. You can call it marriage, civil union, partnership all day long, the truth is that gays couples are looking for is acceptance from God which he can never grant. One must repent from one's sin and turn to Christ, this is the only way that God will see us sinless and perfect.
Bishop Soto: Your rewards will be waiting in Heaven. Thank you for standing up for the Truth and Word of God.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 10:02 AM By Jason
Way to speak the truth, Bishop Soto! Finally a religious leader with enough guts to get up and say what the BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS! Unless we start to follow it again in America, we will keep going down the slippery slope we aare on!
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 10:36 AM By Denise
Amen to the Bishop, his words have been well written and as he said...this is a hard message today.
For the folks here with the negative comments...the resounding issue that is clearly being missed by many of the comments I've read is....
our lives shouldn't be about us, but about living for the God whom created and paid a price for you.
We are NOT suppose to be like the rest of the world or giving into our lusts and desires.
I will ask....to whom are you serving, yourself or God?
He loves you, we love you, but any type of sin is intolerable.
God bless the Bishop!
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 1:53 PM By Olga
As a Protestant having heard about the courage of the Bishop to speak the truth in love, I thank you, Bishop Soto for following the Word & for allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you in this very difficult endeavor...God bless you. Thank you for answering the call of Christ & to demonstrated what it means to be in the world--but not of it...Just as Christ said: "18
7 "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.
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If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.
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Remember the word I spoke to you, 8 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
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And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, 9 because they do not know the one who sent me.
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If I had not come and spoken 10 to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.
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Whoever hates me also hates my Father.
" (John 15:18-23 NAB)
Hate the sin, but love the sinner...For we all fall short...
Amen!
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 3:40 PM By wes
It's interesting listening to gays and lesbians try convince themselves and us that their lifestyle is normal, and if anyone disagrees with them they are bigoted hate mongers.
Nothing can be further from the truth for most christians, and nothing can be further from the truth when their "churches"(and I use the term loosely) try to justify their lifestyle choices. There are many debates about different topics and their interpretation of the Bible, but I don't know how it can be any more clearer than the condemning of the homosexual lifestyle throughout scripture.
For these "priests" who distort scripture to appease a wicked, perverted group of people, I think their punishment will be greater than those they led astray.
If you try to gently share scripture with them like Bishop Soto, or defend scripture like Dr. Dobson, you are attacked mercilessly. Because a hospital won't let you visit your "partner", you want to pervert and poison the sacred institution of marriage. Why not try to get the hospital to change their policy instead of trying to destroy and pervert the Institution of Marriage? Your other argument is that since there are so many failed marriages, how sacred can it be?
This is where we recognize that whether you're heterosexual or homosexual, we're all sinners in need of repentance and redemption. There is sexual immorality in all of society, and the degrading attitude toward sex, marriage, and family that is so prevalent today obviously negatively affects the success of many marriages. Many of whom enter in the commitment, do so in a complete disrespectful manner of the institution (i.e. Vegas Weddings) and really shouldn't have done it in the first place.
The most disheartening of all this, is when children become involved in this abomination. For the homosexual acitivists who force their wickedness into the schools and try to brainwash a generation that what they're doing is normal and ok, the end must be near.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 7:11 PM By Ryan
Excellent Job Bishop! Thanks for taking a Christian stand on the Bible and the way our lives should be! Keep up the good work.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 9:15 PM By Jim
How can a homosexual have a "civil right" to participate in a heterosexual legal and sacramental relationship? What the homosexuals want is not marriage, but NORMALITY. They want sin to disappear. They want their sin blessed. THey want to rebel against God without consequences.
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Posted Friday, October 03, 2008 10:08 PM By JMJ
Creation of a false constitutional crisis is a common technique by those seeking to legitimize sodomy which was never intended by the founders in the name of civil or religious freedom. As far as the sick and dying go, anyone can name a person in their will as trustee to make funeral arrangements. Anyone can designate any person to be a visitor or receiver of medical information if hospitalized. Vote YES on Prop. 8. Kudos to the courageous Bishop Soto.
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Posted Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:17 PM By Tom in Houston
So when will the Catholic Church excommunicate all divorced people? And sponsor legislation banning second marriages? Otherwise this bashing is just reducing Christianity to anti-Gay bigotry. And complete hypocricy.
In California today, it is illegal for me to say as an business owner, that I deny benefits for your spouse because she is Catholic. Why do you demand the rights to deny benefits to my spouse because he is Gay? There ARE cases where Gay people have been denied access to healthcare, visitation, and inhertiance? People have to PAY for attorneys and carry paperwork with them at ALL times in order for them to be effective. How about the Catholic Church offering to pay all of the legal fees for Gay couples to protect their assets from hateful relatives, and ensure hospital visitation?
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Posted Saturday, October 04, 2008 2:38 PM By elijah
It is evident that the world has gone Totaly Crazy, How is it possible that we
forget where we come from, some one once said that:"If there is something
we have learned from history, it is this; that we don't learn from history".
We would not have been where we are today if it was not for the very
Christianity that we are labeling as bigots and who knows what. If the homosexuals can
show us where they in the past have build a nation (empire), providing them
with inventions to make life easier for mankind, then will we give them the
rights that they are demanding. But for the moment all that they have
contributed to society is the spreading of HIV AIDS... Sounds more like the
breaking down of a nation than the building of one...
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Posted Saturday, October 04, 2008 4:51 PM By Mark from PA
Aaron, God bless you and your family. It is good that you share your opinion and your story. Sadly, a lot of the people here just don't like gay people. We have to accept it. They think gays are disordered and defective. They think gays are intrinsically evil. It isn't really hate the sin, love the sinner. They don't really love you. They don't hate you. They just don't like you. If you could give up your partner, never have sex again, never do self-gratification again, never have an impure thought again and stop producing semen and sperm then you would be accepted with open arms. You need to totally repress your sexuality. Then you will be accepted. You are called to chastity and purity. If you can attain this then they will accept you even if you are still gay. As for me, I will accept you as you are. Love - Mark from PA
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Posted Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:38 PM By Anne T.
Tom in Houston, divorced and remarried Catholics cannot receive Communion according to Canon Law. As far as paperwork, I and my husband had to pay from our own pockets before we got married for a venereal disease test, for a license, for a priest, for the use of a church. We also had to pay for healthcare in our younger years for ourselves and our children. Now, since both I and my husband have worked for years, we only pay a "partial" payment for healthcare, along with co-payments. The payment for the delivery of my first child, both doctor and hospital payment, came from a very small bank account my grandmother left me when she died. We have also had to pay a special "marriage tax' for married heterosexual couples. Oh! you did not know about that one. Did you? Then, there is the will that we paid the lawyer for drawing up. So Tom quite bellyaching about having to support yourselves. You are a grownup. Start doing it.
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Posted Sunday, October 05, 2008 10:41 AM By Håkon Bleken
Being a Norwegian I would like to comment on Mr Aarons comments quoting Norwegian legislation on homosexual marriage as an example to follow by California. (Obviously Norwegian gay movements quoted californian legislation and courts as an example to follow by Norwegian legislators.) Aaron is justly making a distinction between civil marriage and the catholic sacrament of marriage. He is saying that the state should enable his friend Thomas to visit him in hospital and arrange for his funeral if he so desires. I entirely agree. However, that does not necessitate to adopt homosexual marriage in the civil law. In Norway homosexuals have for years had equal rights with heterosexuals spouses regarding all these matters Aaron is mentioning. Nervertheless they demand the state to recognize homposexual marriages. The reason obvioulsy is homosexual ideology which demands society to recognize homosexual relationships to be of exactly the same value as heterosexual relationships. The propaganda of homosexual ideology is the issue in Europe, the US and elsewhere, not Thomas right to inherit Mr Aaron and naturally the church is concerned with it. Because for every issue in which society adopts a legislation which proposes an ideology which is anti-catholic the population is educated to have views, moral opinions etc which make the churchs mission more difficult. Homosexual ideology spreading among californians will disenable the church to carry out its mission to bring the faith in Jesus Christ and in one, holy, apostolic and catholic church to the people of California. Rightly this is of concern to the church and I think Mr Aaron should admit that the distiction between civil legislation and church marriage is not at all as simple as he pretends. Catholic homosexuals should definitely refrain from demanding that the legislation which enables them to take care of each other is called marriage. Finally let me express my admiration for bishop Sotos courage.
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Posted Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:27 PM By Rick
What we do not hear about this proposition is that if proposition 8 is not passed we could be sued for not wanting to work when what we do would promote homosexual lifestyles. For example I would be required to offer fertility medical help to homosexuals even if I do not want to, if not I could get sued for discriminating against them. As as already happened. What happened to tolerance and live and let live?
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Posted Monday, October 06, 2008 11:46 AM By Rosebud
The board member of the Gay and Lesbian Ministries council apologized to the group, saying, "We had no idea Bishop Soto was going to say what he said."
Invite the Catholic Bishop to the "Catholic" group and expect him to offer less than the truth? to be less than a Shepherd? Many did not want to hear what the Bishop said, i.e., were most likely hostile "listeners", but Bishop Soto was one who gave "up his life (his comfort) for his sheep."...There is no greater love. God bless Bishop Soto abundantly.
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Posted Tuesday, October 07, 2008 6:05 AM By Lori
I don't know where this myth about denying hospital visitation came from, but I agree with JMJ that any person can designate anyone to be a visitor in a hospital. The same holds true with designating a beneficiary in a will. My husband is a physician in a hospital and has never heard of any such denial.
But getting to the point, should marriage be about health benefits and death benefits? Marriage is about the nurture and protection of the family. When you change the definition, marriage becomes less meaningful.
There have always been limits placed on marriage. You have to be of age, you can not be closely related, you can not be already married, AND you have to be of opposite sexes. Once you change the definition for one, you must be willing to change the definition for the other limits, and then marriage becomes for anyone, anytime, anywhere, with no limits, and then it becomes completely meaningless.
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Posted Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:35 AM By wes
Why is it that Satan (the deceiver,father of lies) and the Homosexual community are sleeping in the same bed?
Almost all of their "arguments" are so deceiving and untrue, they wonder why we get so defensive in preserving God's word. They talk about hate, when they are the one getting legislation passed to have a pastor or anyone who quotes from the Bible condemning homosexuality, arrested for spewing "hate speech." They throw out this number that 10% of all people are gay, another lie,with no proof. They say that you are born that way, another lie, with no proof. They sidestep the truth that the homosexuals were THE cause of AIDS (98% of cases at the start of virus in the 80's were gay)and their solution, here, have a condom. EVERYTHING about their lifestyle is a lie,and a perversion and they wonder why we get mad when they try to spit in our faces spreading their disease.May God help us in defeating this attack, and may the Holy Spirit put it upon your hearts and open your eyes to see that you're on the wrong path, to repent and turn from sin.
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Posted Saturday, October 11, 2008 7:33 PM By Mark from PA
Wes, AIDS is not a gay disease. I just read that it has been around over 100 years. It originated in Africa where most of the victims live. They are mostly heterosexuals. About a quarter of new AIDS victims in the US are women. Black women have higher rates of AIDS than white men. AIDS victims do not spit in our faces spreading their disease. That is a hateful, prejudiced comment. This is so sad.
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Posted Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:05 PM By pat
i have sinned. i have repeatedly. i'm against my sins. though through my weakness i will repeat sinning. i will not, however, attempt to justify my sin to you, nor make you like accept and change your life to accomodate what i have chosen to do. i will not jeopardize your career, home, or family because of what i want. if i choose to do something, i attempt to take responsibility for it. my choices should not become your responsibility. i should not expect my choices to become your issue. i should not expect you to change when it is i who am reponsible for my life. there are far-reaching implications in all that we do, yes even in the dark, that must be thought out and acted in the best possible way for the betterment of all. if you don't like certain aspects of you path in life, whose fault is that? how can it be changed? the first place to look is within. this is not a civil rights issue. there are already legal ways to manage your life whichever way you go. this is an imposition by a particular community acting in a particularly selfish way. am i selfish? yes. do i love homosexual people? same as anybody else.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 2:54 PM By Peter
Marriage is between a man and a woman. If same sex couples desire to have civil unions, so be it. But don't call it a marriage. Register your domestic partnership, enjoy the benefits, but don't call it a marriage.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 6:41 PM By Anne T.
Very well put Pat. As in the Garden of Eden, in the end, we are all responsible for our own actions. There are too many people, both heterosexuals and homosexuals, whining that they are victims in this country. Senator Gramm was right on that one.
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Posted Monday, October 20, 2008 7:46 PM By Mark from PA
Senator Gramm doesn't have to worry. He is a millionaire I think. The rich take care of their own. They don't care about the middle class or the poor. They just want more and more for themselves and if we complain, too bad for us. In the past 8 years, 77% of the increase in wealth has gone to the top 1% and the median family income has gone down over $2000. Where are the family values in all of this? Is it any wonder Catholic schools are closing? Since family incomes are going down most people can't afford to send their kids to Catholic schools.
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Posted Tuesday, October 21, 2008 9:15 AM By Maria C
I have noticed that when one goes to confession that miracles are created. If one is in grave sin, confess it, even if you fail soon after keep perservering in continuing to confess. It is the practice of humility, a virtue that gets us closer to Christ's saving blood and body. You will experience God's love and forgiveness, His healing. Soon after your trust and faith in God will increase because of his sanctifying grace. God's love and mercy is unending!
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Posted Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:28 PM By PADRE ALEJANDRO
Enhorabuena, monseñor. Aunque mi conocimiento de la legua inglesa es reducido he podido leer con satisfacción su brillante y a la vez sencillo discurso. Pero lo que me ha causado más admiración es la valentía con la que ha hablado y el lugar en el que lo ha hecho. Lamento que muchos obispos de mi país (España) no tengan la valentía y la libertad evangélicas para tomar ejemplo de lo que hacen ustedes
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Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 2:39 PM By Michele Joyce
I am thankful to God that Prop 8 passed, but sadden because in revelations this Prop 8 will change eventually. When it does, there will be many more changes that will effect what is right in Gods eyes and once again the world will go against Gods word. God has given the freedom to choose Him and His way and to sin no more. I repent for my sins, which can be just having a bad attitude or wrongful thought. But it's still sin. Sin is sin, there is not one sin bigger then the other. We need to follow Gods word and trust Him. That is what our fine Bishop is saying. I follow no man, but I do follow God and I take a stand to those against Him. His people have the right choose what is right in God's eyes and to follow God's truth and light.
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Posted Monday, November 10, 2008 6:25 PM By Anne T.
Mark, some of the Catholic schools are not closing for lack of money. Many are closing because the teachings are no longer Catholic. Many parents opt for homeschooling if they are able to do so. And, Mark, promiscuity of any kind whether homosexual or heterosexual leads to AIDS, but it has been worse in the homosexual and drug culture, which are quite often connected, in this country. Also, easy divorce has contributed to all this. I know men and women who have had three or four husbands or wives, consecutively. Then their children end up in poverty and with all kinds of problems, and they blame everyone else but themselves. We have all sinned, but some never learn, and the rest of society has to pick up the pieces.
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Posted Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:28 AM By Elena
Aaron: Thank-you for being a voice of reason among these people, these poor people who fear what they do not understand and forget the teachings of the Bible. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself and that no person has the right to judge another, regardless of ancient Jewish laws.
To the rest of you: How many of you have ever spoken out against braided hair? How many of you protest cotton/polyester blends? These are also abominations, according to the Bible. But you do not fear braided hair, so you do not hate it. Please listen to Jesus and love each other.
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Posted Tuesday, May 12, 2009 7:49 PM By Colin
Elena,
If you truly loved others, you would have read the bishop's talk and been nourished by it. Love is not about allowing people to do whatever they want, but about desiring what is best for them, what will truly make them human and get them to Heaven. That is love.
As for judging others, you're right. You can't judge a person, but you can judge their actions. You can easily say, "that action will perfect you" or "that action isn't in accord with how God made you". If we couldn't say these things, there would be no concept of right and wrong, there would just be anarchy.
Human sexuality cannot be compared with braided hair. The bishop's homily was quite clear on why homosexual sex is wrong. it's not live giving, it's not self-donating. It doesn't go anywhere.
Open your heart and listen to the bishop's words, they are gentle and firm, not harsh and condemning. He is a true shepherd and Sacramento is blessed to have him!
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:28 AM By Carol
Everybody: the range of comments here is pretty crazy - from Aaron to some real bigoted comments with no grounding in reality (such as claiming that homosexual people can't have monogamous relationships, etc.) Here's the thing that no one on this thread seems to get: the Church sees homosexual acts as "disordered." That is the same word the catechism uses to describe such non-illegal activities as HETEROsexual premarital sex, pornography, and masturbation. So FIRST of all - before you look down on homosexual people, make sure you yourself never masturbate, lust, watch pornographic movies, or have sex with anyone but your wedded spouse. Or use birth control.
Now, for those of you who meet all those requirements, then the question I'd ask is this: should the state outlaw all the other "disordered" manifestations of sexuality that are committed by wounded, lonely, or weak people? Should there be an amendment against masturbation? Against premarital sex? Against divorce? Against secretly viewing your wife as a sexual object and not as the image of God? I don't think anyone's campaigning for an anti-premarital-sex amendment. So what's the difference? We all know that Jesus would view Aaron's monogamous, loving homosexual relationship as MUCH less sinful than MANY heterosexual relationships in which masturbation, manipulation, and unfaithfulness are rampant. Still a sin in the strict catholic sense B. Soto used: "not leading to the ecstasy of self-discovery in God" etc. But neither are any of those other legal activities.
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