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Mostly the same old line-up

What to expect at this year’s Los Angeles Religious Education Congress


“Lift Your Gaze … See Anew,” is the theme for this year’s (Feb. 28-March 2) Los Angeles Religious Education Congress. Though sponsored by the Los Angeles archdiocese, the congress, held yearly in Anaheim, has become notorious for its offering of speakers who openly dissent from Church teaching.

This year’s speakers include Richard Gaillardetz and Scott Appleby, who both have expressed doubts about the binding authority Pope of John Paul II’s 1995 declaration, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, that said the Church hasn’t the authority to ordain women. The claim that the document was infallible because it expresses the universal and ordinary magisterium is problematic, said Gaillardetz in a 1996 Louvain Studies article, since, in his view, the pope was not teaching in union with the bishops. In an interview with in the July 2002 U.S. Catholic, Appleby opined "that we are on the brink of sacrificing the Eucharist to the insistence on an all-male, celibate clergy. I wish we had a sufficient number of priests, but we clearly do not."

As ever, this year’s congress will feature speakers associated with Call to Action, a group that dissents from Church teaching on homosexuality, women’s ordination, and contraception, among others. One of these speakers, Fr. Michael Crosby, at the 2006 congress decried the Church’s “clericalism, sexism, and heterosexism.” The Church, he said, has “unequal power relationships between lay and clerical castes, between women and men, between homosexual and heterosexual people. We have structured, institutionalized sexual apartheid, which is sinful!"

Other Call to Action speakers featured at this year’s congress are Sister Fran Ferder and Sister Barbara Fiand. In 2002, Ferder told the National Catholic Reporter that, "central to a more inclusive, open system, is, of course, the need to welcome sacramental ministers from all lifestyles and both genders.”

Another congress speaker this year, Fr. John Heagle (who with Ferder co-directs TARA -- Therapy and Renewal Associates -- in Seattle), told The Social Edge.com that the Church needs to listen to the “love stories of all the people.” In the past, he said, moral theologians failed to listen “to the voices of married persons, single people, or the gay and lesbian community as well.”

Megan McKenna returns to the congress this year. Self described as a “writer, theologian, storyteller, missionary,” McKenna has observed that bishops used Pope John Paul II “to push issues of sexuality, marriage, and issues related to birth/gender and abortion -- worthy causes, but in the light of the plight of the world, or the teachings of Jesus in the Scriptures, not the issues that we will be judged on if we are Catholics/Christians.”

A workshop, “Is There Salvation Outside the Catholic Church? Are Other Churches ‘True’?” will be led by Fr. Alexei Smith, director of the Los Angeles archdiocese’s ecumenical office; Fr. John Bakas, dean of St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles; and an Episcoplian, the Rev. Gwynne Guibord. Until 2002, Guibord was the ecumenical liaison officer for the Metropolitan Community Church, an openly homosexual group. When the MCC abolished her office in 2002, Guibord, who was in a "committed relationship" with another woman, approached Los Angeles Episcopal bishop John Bruno and became a postulant. Two years later, Bruno ordained Guibord a deacon; she was ordained an Episcopal priest in January 2005.

The former rector of St. Patrick’s Seminary in Menlo Park, Fr. Gerald Coleman, will address physician-assisted suicide at the congress. Though in the past Coleman has spoken in favor of the civil recognition of life-long homosexual relationships, his treatment of assisted suicide has been well in line with Church teaching. Addressing the subject of conscience, as well as euthanasia, will be Fr. Richard Benson, moral theology professor and academic dean at St. John’s Seminary in Camarillo. Benson’s articles, published in the Los Angeles archdiocesan newspaper, the Tidings, have displayed fidelity to Church teaching.


READER COMMENTS

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:25 AM By Elaine
The only ray of hope is that Fr. Robert Barron is keynoting.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:49 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Where are all the millstones when we need them?

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:42 AM By jpoppe
I wonder if someone on the side of truth and who really cares about religious education in California might include pocket catechisms in the conference goody bag that the attendees are sure to get. This would make the session on Is There Salvaltion Outside the Church? a very short presentation. Maybe a session on how the Saints are the best teachers of our faith and can be reliably refered to when we need guidance on how to live our faith in a manner that will bring us home to our Father in heaven. Religious education is really very simple when you actually believe in what you are teaching.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:38 AM By Puttss
Dissent is the fodder that feeds the search for deeper understanding of the divine truths. Don't knock 'til you've tried it.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:52 AM By Fr. J
I can't think of any other religion that invites people who don't believe in it to teach it's teachers. Most of our people, including those with doctorates, don't know the faith. That is because of false teachers like this. How about we just cancel the whole thing. It doesn't do any good and it does do a lot of harm.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:29 AM By Sheila
As usually, what comes out of the archdiocese in LA is frightening and to be avoided at all costs. God help us, as His justice is coming. There must be some bishop, priest, deacon somewhere in Southern California who sees what a devastating thing this Religious Education Conference to the souls there and will speak up. Blatant heresy!

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:24 PM By John L. Sillasen
Puttss, you've got it backwards. Take God, the Trinity, for example. There is no dissent among the Father, Son and Holy Ghost ... and there is perfect knowledge. Since we are made in the image and likeness of God, then it follows that we gain more without dissent from truth. Dissent is for those who are confused, but it will not lead them to less confusion.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:32 PM By Tony de New York
Is just a matter of time, Cardinal Mahony have 3 more years for retirement.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:50 PM By Linda Maria
The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress is obviously not dedicated to honest, true Catholic education-- it is totally immature, immoral, heretical, and a horrific fraud!! The Vatican needs to thoroughly investigate, and put an end to this garbage!! Let Christ alone reign! May all convert to Him alone!

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 3:40 PM By Janek
Lord here they come again, pagan dancing girls, drums, guitars, feminist nuns in street clothes and earrings, a fake Cardinal, and your basic run of the mill Novus Ordonarian nuts. Let us pray for their conversion to The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Faith and the return of the Traditional Latin Mass to all of our altars!!! Deo Gratias and pray for our Holy Father Benedict XVI

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM By Rmt
Janek.....I am proud to be one of those basic run of the mill Novus Ordonarian nuts. You traditionalists should move into the 21st century and quit being abunch of whiny living fossils.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:02 PM By Nadine
When will the nightmare in Los Angeles end? Archbishop Burke or Bishop Bruskewitz please come to LA and restore Holy Tradition!!!

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:37 PM By Sarah
Why doesn't Pope Benedict XVI start weeding out the heretical bishops? Heresy is a grave sin. It appears that some bishops have lost the Faith. Some of them might be happier as members in the Metropolitan Church or the Unitarian Universalist Church.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 5:38 PM By Janek
To be quite honest I prefer the 15th century, having said that Rmt that means the The Holy Roman Catholic Church is a living fossil as well? This Holy Father knows what must be done and he began restoration in July of 2007 with the Moto Propio, brick by brick the Holy Faith will be restored to its greatness prior to the disaster called Vatican 2. Soon clown masses, altar-girls, gay masses, dancing nuns, lay lectors, guitars, drums, felt banners, peoples altars, communion in the hand, kiss of peace, and all other un-holy and un-Catholic perversions will cease thanks to His Holiness Pope Benedict the XVI! Deo Gratias Benedictus XVI

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:53 PM By Central Valley
The cancer from this conference has spread throughout California. In the Fresno diocese, school is recessed so teachers and religous can attend the LA conference. The heresies brought back and taught to children in the Fresno diocese is a crying shame

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:35 PM By Rmt
Janek, you traditionalists are the one's that want to make the church a 'living fossil". Your examples are isolated happenings. You don't want to deal with the modern challenges to the church but rather romanticize the past. We live in the 21st century and have to deal with 21st century problems, not 15th century problems. The Church will never return solely to the days before Vatican II, so you traditionalists will have to put up with the us Novus Ordinarian nuts. Your ideas are pretty much outside mainstream Catholicism. Benedict might modify or slow down the process of change ( which is fine with me) but he knows better that he cannot take the church back to pre Vactican II days. People of your opinion are pretty much in the minority.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:59 PM By John L. Sillasen
Rmt, what are you on? The people of the middle ages Church are long gone. All people now living in this world are here ... or haven't you noticed. Many people live in many cultures. You've got a right to live in whatever dream you concoct ... bottom line is that God does not change, and people do not change. External things change. We may buy some to the exclusion of others ... you market your stuff, others market theirs. God markets the popes ... ever wondered about that? The price is steep. God markets our souls ... the price is Jesus Christ ... the civilization we live in now is a speck in time; it will pass away before you know what has happened. All people under the age of fifty see a never ending future for themselves; all people over fifty know their days are numbered ... People have always lived, married, raised offspring, managed their lives, grown old and died. What are you, that you are so different?

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:03 PM By John L. Sillasen
Well, the heresies stacking up in the Fresno diocese are not as great as God. If I and innumerable others could swim upstream in a pagan and abyssmal society and find the Catholic Church, then it should be a piece of cake for a Catholic raised in heresy to find the truth ... if they have a will to do so. You can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink; conversely, you can keep a horse from water, yet it will always thirst for real water until the day it dies. Heaven is like that ... if you want it, you will find it. Even in the odd world of Rmt, anyone who wants Heaven can find it.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:55 PM By cjo
HOW MUCH DOES THIS DISSIDENT [?] CONGRESS COST AND WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM ???

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:17 PM By Concerned Catholic
There is a strident lack of charity masquerading as orthodoxy in this chain of postings. I'm all for orthodoxy...but there is nothing of God or the Catholic faith in name calling and abuse of others.

Posted Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:43 PM By SCU
When is the glorious day of Mahoney's retirement?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 1:23 AM By Angelo
It would a great Idea for Mahoney, to invite the Holy Father. To this great educational congress. I'm sure Mahoney would be so pleased to have The Vicar of Christ, see the great catechitical achievments of the past 40 years. Plus it would be fun to see the succesor of St. Peter, go BALLISTIC!!!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:08 AM By Richard
Lessons on how not to be a Catholic: how to promote modernism, how to promote relativism, how to promote humanism, how to dissent, how to oppose the Magisterium, how to oppose the Pope, how to lead others into manifest grave sin. What we need is a new Inquisition for the 21st century to cleanse this filth and poison from our Church. Credo in Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam. Richard Ecclesia Militans

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:17 AM By MariaTeresa
I am a catechist in New York and at our 2006 archdiocesan conference, when I took a workshop for certification credit, a nun responsible for catechist formation here announced that Purgatory did not exist. When I challenged her, she said she had been teaching for 50 years and she knew what she was talking about. Needless to say, I did not attend last year's conference. The liturgical crisis PALES before our crisis in catechesis. And our worst offenders hold all kinds of graduate - even doctoral - degrees and "prestigious" awards. We need a solid curriculum FROM ROME covering the BASICS, particularly regarding the supernatural.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:39 AM By Fr. M.P.
I would ask every real Catholic to pray extra Divine Mercy chaplets to counteract the evil promulgated by this conference.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 12:18 PM By Donna
The remnant will be small indeed.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 12:40 PM By The other Mike
It's no wonder there is a shortage of priests. After being brainwashed with that tripe by Catholic teachers, what normal American heterosexual boy would dare desire the priesthood?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 1:13 PM By Tony de New York
SCU, Cardinal Mahony has to present his resignation before or on Febreury 27, 2011. That day is his 75th birthday.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 1:54 PM By Fr. X
Would it be possible to summarize in one page many of the different dissenting teachings, especially catechetical and liturgical, that have been promulgated at this conference? Many church volunteers are manipulated to go to this conference with good intentions and come back confused. Most parishioners and even priests are not aware of all the abuses. I will send in my donation to CalCatholic if someone can summarize these abuses in one page, which we can then copy and distribute in our parishes.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 3:18 PM By Dan
MariaTeresa, your comments remind me of an L.A. archdiscesan nun who told a bunch of us teachers in 1983 that nothing from the nativity stories was historically true; moreover, if I even thought of teaching otherwise that it would be my fault if the students later went to a Catholic high school and having learned that it was all just "theological truth" without an ounce of historical basis, lost their faith as a result. It seems it takes the Catholic educational establishment 10 - 20 years to catch up to the destructive tendencies of liberal protestantism; but in 1983 this nun was well on the way to mastering the technique.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 5:40 PM By John L. Sillasen
Dan, that "The Historical Jesus" was a movement begun by the protestants over a century ago ... by "Dr. Livingstone, I presume" (not kidding). What they attempted was to force the facts of Jesus into one of the theories of how "history" is formulated. In other words, "history" is what is written down regardless of what actually happened. "History" also can not amount to as much as the reality it purports to reveal. So, they tried to stuff as much as they could find in Scripture or through anthropology into one of the "history" molds. Lot of stuff didn't fit. Lot of stuff could not be "proven" ... and the way they insisted it had to be was that if it couldn't be proven, then it was false. BTW, they failed to achieve it due to "technical difficulties"; however there are those who still believe their efforts, regardless of facts ... there are facts also that wouldn't fit into their scheme. You can check out the "historical-critical" method for a more academic look at their concoction. Either it's all faded away by now, or else I've just not seen it due to the vastly larger collection of credible material to study. My last direct contact with one of those people was a nun in '89 who warned me to consider "God the Mother" (not the Mother of God).

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 7:23 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
I hope and pray that all of you who are rightly disgusted with the Religious Education Congress will come and join us as we prayerfully demonstrate outside of the Congress on Saturday March !st from 9:00 AM to approx. 6:00 PM. If you can't come and join us PLEASE PRAY FOR THOSE OF US WHO WILL STAND FOR THE TRUE CHURCH OUTSIDE THE CONGRESS ON THAT DAY! The January 31st. edition of the Wanderer featured our full page ad that pretty much sums up the mess that the Religious Education Congress has become under Cardinal Mahony. If anyone can't get a copy, e-mail me at: crcoa@dslextreme.com, and I will reply with a copy. If you can't join us physically, perhaps you can contribute to our costs in planning and executing the demonstation, and you certainly can Pray for those of us who do demonstrate! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 7:33 PM By Anne
This has gone on for too long; come, Lord Jesus, rescue us!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:29 PM By SCU
My favorite CA Archdiocesan nun story is when I was in college I went to the campus minister who was a Dominican sister (they don't like the term "nun" anymore). I told her about my somewhat erudite spiritual struggles, and she told me I was too self-centered and needed to be helping the disenfranchised, and thereby she invited me to a protest opposing the death penalty at UCLA. She said without social justice as part of my Catholic life I would be a "man trying to walk with one leg." I swore then and there that I would never again attend a Catholic university, and I transferred the next year to a state school!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:05 PM By Bill Parks
I attended a reglious education conference once and I came away with a deep concern because I heard "liberal" teachers at the conference advocating their false doctrines. However, today I am more deeply concerned with false "conservatives" who think Jesus was too liberal for choosing 11 married men out of 12 as His apostles. The celibates who run the church today are not following Jesus example when they exclude married men from the priesthood. Indeed they are worshiping celibacy as a practice over the Eucharist by making the Eucharist scarce due to the priest shortage caused in part by excluding married men and thereby departing from Christ's example when He chose 11 married men out of 12 as His closest associates on earth! The leadership of the church is blind to the truth of Christ example that married men can and should become priests - in fact, 11 out 12 priests should be married by Jesus example! If this does not happen then the Catholic Eucharist will become scarce caused in part by a celibate and homosexual leadership within the church that exclude heterosexual married men! I want to be on Jesus side and not man made fictions!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:41 PM By SCU
Has anyone looked at the conference webpage? Take a look at the conference topics, and even the congress logo. Very depressing.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:15 AM By Grisha
SCU: I've looked at it. While, as Fr. MP pointed out, you can't tell everything from program listings, I'm beginning to wonder if the objections to it don't flow from the fact that it's a *mainstream* Catholic conference as opposed to an *orthodox* or *traditional (Traditional?)* one. There are 288 workshops by 194 presenters. They can't all be heretics. The Keynote, Fr. Robert Baron looks solidly catholic from what I can tell and our own Fr. Gerald Coleman. Yes - there are a few far out people. We've already talked about Rev. Gifford & Ms. McKenna here. I've also been told that there will be a priest who sends people out into the desert naked for a day. Truth or urban legend? If true, I hope to g God they slather themselves w/ heavy duty sun screen. OTOH, it appears to be heavy on justice and peace and which is of interest to me and there are also several on parish leadership, an area which I believe is vitally important. Among the 100 or exhibitors are the LA Archdiocese gay / lesbian ministry (Their website seems to show them to follow Church teachings) and the National Religious Vocations Conference which addresses a critical issue in the Church.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 7:16 AM By Grisha
Cal Catholic would do well to break from its format and send someone to cover the conference in depth. Not from a “red meat” or “gotcha” approach, but more in the style of the mass reviews done in your predecessor sites. What happened? What was good, what was bad and what could be added to improve the value of the event? I suppose those here who totally reject Vatican II and the Church as it is – as opposed to what they would like it to be – wouldn’t have any interest in this kind of approach but I, and perhaps others certainly would

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:16 AM By John L. Sillasen
Not all the apostles were married. Jesus did not pick them on the basis that they were married. Jesus was not married. St Paul was not married (not one of the first twelve). Scripture only reveals that some were married. There is no case to be made on this point. Popes are not ruled by theories and documents, but are living "documents" whose hearts are being written in by Christ. The tired argument that a pope is a slave to some written item or some way of going about things is false ... otherwise we wouldn't need a pope. The motive for this hype is to wrest control of the Church from God.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:26 AM By Betty
I really wish the people who want women priests would answer my questions. Would they be allowed to have boyfriends, get married, become pregnant. etc. Would she live in a rectory with her "fellow priests"? If you announced that Mother So and So will not be saying Mass this morning because she's pregnant and she has morning sickness? I'm not being facetious. I just wish that practical considerations should be made.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:41 AM By Andrew
Just imagine how many souls are being misled and lost by this mockery conference.To Cardinal Mahoney, God will not be mocked forever!

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 11:59 AM By Grisha
Betty - In reading yopur pos about Mother being pregnant, I couldn't help but recall a scene from one of Robert K. Tannenbaum's Butch Karp / Marlene Campi novels. Marlene is working in the kitchen and her precousious 7year old daugheter says she wants to be nun when she grows up, adding ..but I want to join an order where you jump out of planes to help sick people in Africa, and that also lets you have babies." To this Marlene replies "Maybe you could start your own order, dear. It could be called the 'Little Sisters of the Fertile Womb (Airborne).'" BTW - If your morning sickness scenario ever came to pass in our parish, all the older ladies would swarm over to the rectory right after mass and ply her with traditional ethnic homeopathic remedies for morning sickness which women in thier families have used without fail since time immemorial.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:48 PM By Matthew
Warn everyone you can not to go! If they insist on going, just lie and tell them that there will be lots of workshops on Latin in the liturgy, Gregorian chant, traditional Catholic devotions like the Rosary and the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, and many other sessions on the sanctity of life, marriage, and sexuality. That should be enough to keep most LA Catholics from attending.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:07 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
I repeat, if anyone wants to join us in a prayerful demonstration against this abomination, please contact me at: crcoa@dslextreme.com or call me at: 714-491-2284. Grisha, they always have at least one token orthodox speaker. Why didn't you name the priest who has his "retreatants" get naked, it is Richard Rhohr, he also takes part in marriages of lesbians! You consider Coleman orthodox! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:50 PM By Grisha
Kenneth: FYI - While I'm still not 100% sure what the defintion of "orthodox" is for purposes of this forum, I don't believe Fr. Coleman falls into that catagory and neither do I. As I said earlier, it's a *mainstream* Catholic conference and I question wether a critical mass of the presenters fall outside of the paramiters of the teachings of the Church. Is it possible the whackos as token as the orthodox speakers?As for Fr. Rhor, never knew the name, only the story. Tell me about the lesbian weddings. Does he officiate or just come as a guest? Whatever his role, I hope to God he manages to keep his clothes on.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 4:12 PM By John L. Sillasen
Richard Rohr, from what I read a few years back, would preside over nature campouts, where one of the intended-to-be-manly rites of passages was jumping naked over the campfire ... Now, it's possible I have the name of that priest wrong, but I don't think so. There were no women or boys at those things ... I am not a direct nor even an indirect witness, but I recall reading some things including blogs on it.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 6:40 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Grisha, If I need to tell you what orthodox is, you are too far gone. I'll tell you what orthodox is not. It is not approving of homosexual acts, it is not approving of sodomite marriage, it is not telling attendees that it is really not a sin to miss ;Mass on Sundays without a sufficient reason; it is not telling people that belief in Adam and Eve is superstition; it is not telling people that all are saved; etc. etc. ad nauseam. I could go on and on with this list but this will have to suffice for now. God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.co

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 6:46 PM By Grisha
John L: Hey, I might go to one of his lesbian weddings (especially if they were serving good wine) but NO WAY am I going to jump over a campfire, naked or clothed.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:16 PM By John L. Sillasen
I don't want people jumping over my campfires either ... gets in the way of brewing up the coffee. Best coffee ever: First pot of coffee I and my pals brewed up in the remote desert twenty miles outta Phoenix back in our high school days. Why? Somebody hung the lantern over the coffee pot and all the insects in the area flamed out on the hot lantern glass and fell into the coffee. We didn't figure this out until later when we wondered why it tasted so good. Those were the days, one old Chevy sedan with three 16 year old boys, fourhundred miles from home, armed to the teeth driving many miles off the paved road and living out there for five nights and days, each wandering alone for hours and then collecting for chow and night camp. We all got to see a real ufo, and then another time the entire northern horizon lit up for a long time ... it was not northern lights. I even checked the car radio to see if Los Angeles had been nuked. We think it was a test out in Nevada.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 8:57 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
What will you say to HIM? When you stand before Our Lord and Savior, and He asks you what you did when His Church was being violently attacked at the Archdiocese of Los Angeles Religious Education Congress, what will you say to Him? Once again, the speakers list for this Congress is like a who’s who of the dissenter’s roster for the Americas. Among the more notorious of these speakers are: Scott Appleby, Dr.Tom Beaudoin, Rev. Michael Crosby, Rev. John Cusick, Msgr. Ray East, Rev. Rev. Virgillio Elizondo, Sr. Barbara Fiand, Richard Fragomeni, Edwina Gatley, Greer Gordon, Thomas Groome, Rev. Gwynne Guibord, David Haas, Rev. Marty Haugen, Rev. John Heagle, Rev. Brian Massingale, Dr. Megan McKenna, Fr. Chris Ponnet Rev. Timothy Radcliffe, Rev. Alexia Salvatierra, Fr. Thomas Sweetser, Jim Wallis, Tom Zanzig, and.this is just a partial list of the most notorious speakers! Once again, the “Concerned Roman Catholics of America” will be conducting a prayerful demonstration, and passing out flyers that attempt to educate those in attendance as to exactly what kind of teachings they are being subjected to. We need more volunteers to help in this effort! Come and join us on Saturday, March 1st as we stand up for His Church and its teachings. If you do, you will at least be able to say to Him when the time comes that you tried! We will be in front of the Congress entrance from 9:00 AM to around 6:00 PM. Come and join us in the “Church Militant”. We firmly desire that all participants have Her Holy Rosary in their hands at all times! The Congress takes place at the Anaheim Convention Center, 800 West Katella Ave., Anaheim, CA on the south side of Katella between Katella and Euclid. Please let us know if you are anyone you know are planning to join us because this will help us to determine how many flyers we need to have printed. We very much need a volunteer who speaks fluent Spanish! We will meet outside the main ticket entrance. For further information, call CRCOA at: 714-491-2284, E-mail us at: crcoa@earthlink.net, fax us at: 714-772-5075, or go to our Website at: crcoa.org. God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth Fisher, Founde

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 12:29 AM By Bill Parks
I am responding to John L. Sillasen's February 9 post of tired worn out cliches to answer the question: "Should priests be allowed to marry?" Fr. John Echert on the EWTN Forum answered the question: "How many of the apostles were married?" Fr. Echert stated, "Early writings of the Church suggest that all the apostles were married when chosen by Jesus except John. However, from the Bible we only know of the marriage of Peter (there is mention of his mother-in-law)." the first pope was married and he had a mother-in-law! And again, early writings suggest that the Apostles were married and did not divorce their wives to follow Jesus. Marriage is a basic human right and the church is mistaken by prohibiting such a basic human right. In fact, today the celibacy practice is making the Eucharist in short supply because many potential heterosexual candidates do not want to enter the priesthood because they view the modern Catholic priesthood as being a haven for gay men. The perception is based on numerous news reports. I saw homosexuality practiced in the 1950s at a seminary which I attended. God opened my eyes to learn about homosexuality and pedophilia practiced by religious in the church when I was young . Not all religious are that way but there are enough gay acting priests to make it an unattractive and abnormal vocation for most men. Today, many Catholic priests act disturbed and neurotic. I do not notice this type of neurotic behavior in married priests. The church has become dysfunctional and needs to get back on track with the help of a married priesthood so that married men can have the marital state in common with the laity. This would also lessen the shortage of priests and make the Eucharist less scarce among Catholics. The laity ask for bread and are given stones -- the absence of manna from heaven because the "skirted ones in drag" want to maintain their single life style. Of course not all priests are bad but there are enough to make you wonder when the current gay problem among priests will end by permitting married heterosexuals to participate in the priesthood like in Jesus time on earth

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:18 AM By Grisha
John L: Your story brought back memories of when my high school buddies and I did the same kind of thing. Gee it was fun! Unfortunately for us, Larry managed to shoot himself in the ankle while reholstering a .22 Colt Woodsman. Immedately thereafter, our parents confiscated our firearms for six months. Believe me, when we finally got to go hunting again we were REAL careful.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:41 AM By Grisha
Kenneth: Please note that I refered to what the definition of "orthodox" was for "purposes of this forum." My defintion of orthodox is a baptised Catholic who recites and believes the two Creeds and the renewal of his or her baptismal promises.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 10:29 AM By Grisha
Bill Parks: I'm one of those who is very concerned about the vocations crisis (John L. calls it a laity crisis but we agree a crisis it is.) Has any kind of research been done to back up the claim "many potential heterosexual candidates do not want to enter the priesthood because they view the modern Catholic priesthood as being a haven for gay men?" For a subject like this, news reports just aren't enough evidence. I'm reasonably active in the Church and interact with a fair number of priests. They don't as a group seem especially "gay acting" to me (Though the little Rambos over at NOR seem to want them all to be "macho men") nor do they seem to act "disturbed and neurotic." The pastors I know, however are terribly overworked and under supported by their diocese.-***********************************************************************Really, absent a miraculous intervention by the Holy Sprit the only solutions I see on the horizon are 1) Greater use of lay led communion services 2) Greater use of the permanent deaconate including allowing remarriage for widowers and a fast track formation program for exceptional candidates 3) married priests (major financial implications here) and finally 4) Women priests (major, major controversy here, - see some of the comments on earlier threads. Anyone have vany other ideas. As Ross Perot says "I'm all ears."

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 11:38 AM By Fr. M.P.
Actually there is no vocations crisis whatsoever for those dioceses or Orders who are faithful to the Pope and Magisterium, such as Mother Angelica, FSSP, Dominican Sisters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist, Bishop Bruskewitz, etc. You will only find a crisis in the modernist infected areas. So that is the root solution - get back to the true faith instead of modernist clap-trap. No need for all those other things, especially heresies of women priests and such modernist clap-trap. Grisha, promoting women priests is outright heretical and is self-excommunicating, placing your soul at risk. Why do you continue to promote it? This is one of those itching ears problems, as the Bible says. If one isn't praying for real vocations and truly living the faith, then one is part of the problem rather than the solution.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 1:12 PM By Fr. X
To Mr. Parks statements. First, According to scripture and documents of early Church Fathers, only Peter specifically know of was married. We do not know if he was a widow. No mention of his wife or children. There is no mention of other apostles being married. What Parks may have heard on EWTN is that some priests were married in the early church, Paul mentions this, but this became a problem, nepotism and pressures on family life to name two. Parks says many priests are neurotic and implies molestations with celibacy, but anyone who works with children knows that the overwhelming amount of child abuse occurs within families, by people who know the child, often are related to the child, often are the parent or older sibling of the child. As to "overworked" priests, thanks to the LA Congress, there really is not much for priests to do these days, except be a puppet reading a script at mass or penance service written by a liturgical coordinator. If you get out of line you are sent into exile to do even less. Everything else is done by eucharistic ministers and lay people teaching sacramental prep programs and the entertainers in the music ministry. In the end, though, to get out of the desert we must follow the way of Jesus, fasting, penance and prayer. The desire for holiness will in the end overcome our current prideful obstinance

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 1:17 PM By Grisha
Fr. MP: I've always been led to understand that the orders (Sisters of St. Joseph of Crondolent, Sisters of Mercy, Paulists and Jesuits) and the dioceses (LA under Cardinal Manning, SF under Ab's Quinn, Lavada and Niederour) with which I've been affiliated were and are faithful to the Pope and the magesterium. I don't promote women priests, however, who are any of us to say that God won't decide at some point in human history that women might be ordained to the diaconate or even the priesthood. In the meantime, it's not my, nor anyone’s, place to agitate for it. As far as priestly vocations go, do you really believe that if the folks here who want to roll back Vatican II succeed we’ll have enough priests minister to America, much less the world in coming decades. The FSSP only ordains about 15 priests per year worldwide. Personally it’s no skin off my nose because I live in a heavily Catholic city with a half dozen churches within a few miles of my home. Unfortunately other Catholics aren’t so favorably situated. Finally as I mentioned earlier, one of the things I’m doing this Lent is praying for vocations. It’s terribly important.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 2:21 PM By Grisha
Fr. X - Regarding "overworked priests: I don't know what kind of a ministry you have or have had in your priestly career. However, our pastor is a one man band who says 3 masses on Sunday (including writing consistently excellent homilies) and one daily, hears confessions on Saturday, does a couple of funerals a week and usually a marriage or so. He's on call 24/7 (which I greatly appreciated since he rolled out Code 3 to the hospital to give me the last rites last year.) He ministers to our K-8 school and "staffs" the Parish Council, School Committee and Finance Committee. He's the Facilities Manager for an aging four building complex and is in effect the CEO, CFO and COO of a small business. Oh - that's just the big stuff. He also has to listen to every little squabble among parishioners, hears why Mr. Jones thinks his Billy shouldn't serve so many masses, figures out which homeless person at the rectory door is truly needy as opposed to being a scam artist. Oh there's also the once a week evening scripture class - what else - oh yes, the Archdiocese has these committees he gets dragooned to serve on. No cook, only a part-time housekeeper and a part time secretary although a lot of parishioners are happy to help out with ideas about how things could be done better. He does all this without complaint. Did I mention he's a fire department chaplain in his spare time? There may be some "soft touch" jobs in the priesthood but being pastor isn't one of them.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 2:37 PM By Tony de New York
Grisha God already spoke through his vicar here on earth, Jonh Paul II. Have u read "Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis" ? Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith. Responsum: In the affirmative. This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith. The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published. Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the Feast of the Apostles SS. Simon and Jude, October 28, 1995. + Joseph Card. Ratzinger Prefect + Tarcisio Bertone Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli Secretary

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 4:18 PM By John L. Sillasen
Bill Parks, here is another tired worn out cliche: The Magisterium reveals that some but not all apostles were married at the time of being chosen. Your source is not Magisterial, even though it is one of innumerable guesses that have sprung up with the advent a century ago of Protestantism's "The Life of Christ" movement. All those academics have to make a living, and so they propose endless ideas, so far none of which has been put into the Magisterium. Bill, on your advocacy of why priests should be married, that celibacy doesn't work ... scientifically that idea doesn't work ... in science if there is one exception to the hypothesis, then it never makes it to the theory stage. And in this case there are thousands upon thousands of exceptions. Your "newthink" simply is errant. Back to all apostles being married: They were Jewish men, not pagans, and as such did not marry young ... not that I know this for a fact, but as a study coming from Jewish-Christian academic sources. Scripture also supports the lack of married apostles ... read it and wonder where their wives are mentioned.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:02 PM By John L. Sillasen
Grisha, I should now add, that we stopped for lunch in Phoenix at the home of the cousin of one of my pals. The cousin was not there, but his mother gave us lunch (burgers made from bison and beef). His cousin accidentally had shot himself in the leg. Then, as we then wandered around, separated, shooting rattlesnakes and rabbits ... the desert surface there is formed in waves, with crests and troughs ... I was in a trough when a round or two from a .30-06 (sporterized '03) whirred overhead. He was on the tabu side of the barbed wire fence of Tonto Nat'l Forest, but was upset that I was shooting over that way (either my JC Higgins .22 autoloader carbine, or my Ruger Single Six .22 mag with a homemade hair trigger ... a perfect job if I might boast). Lessons learned the easy way. REAL CAREFUL is CRITICAL. I've had to check my dogs a couple times for birdshot (none) until I finally learned not to pull the trigger unless I knew for certain where the dog was or might be at the moment. Sometimes I hunt canyons for quail using all three of my dogs ... it's always "fun" when the dogs are not all visible and the quail flush right towards the top of the ridge -- both species can move real real fast in steep terrain. If you've ever hunted birds or waterfowl ... well, then who wants to be known as Dick Chaney Jr.?

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:36 PM By Fr. M.P.
Grisha, you said "who are any of us to say that God won't decide at some point in human history that women might be ordained." Actually, God said *NO* permanently. He spoke infallibly through 'T'radition for 2000 years and most recently through Pope John Paul II back in 1994, "to be held **always**, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of faith." The matter is closed - forever. Not even the Pope and Magisterium can change that. If you refuse to accept this dogma, then you are not Catholic. Period. You promote this heresy by continuing to bring it up as an option, even though you deny it. As to vocations, you think the Jesuits are faithful to the Magisterium? Of course some are. That indicates how much of the faith that you really know - or accept. I will quote a somewhat famous Jesuit who said a few years ago at a Wanderer conference - (paraphrasing) "it's hard to be called Jesuit and Catholic at the same time these days." There will be plenty of vocations for a faithful people, without needing more laity-led events, married men becoming priests, or so-called "women priests." God provides for a faithful people - and He doesn't for an unfaithful people.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 8:14 PM By John L. Sillasen
This is a gem from Fr. M.P's. post: "God provides for a faithful people - and He doesn't for an unfaithful people."

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 9:39 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Fr. M.P. I knew Fr. Hardon, in fact Walter Matt once assigned me to make sure he got back safely to the Wanderer Forum, what a priest, what a Jesuit, what a potential Saint (in my mind he already is). I believe I was present when he said what you quoted. God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.co

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 11:50 PM By Bill Parks
Re: Women priests. If the Virgin Mary, a woman, carried Jesus (God incarnate) in her body for 9 months and then delivered Him to the world and stayed with him for 33 years, I do not see why a dedicated spiritual type of woman can not be trained and entrusted with the privilege of administering the sacred meal, the mass, and consecrating the bread and wine. The idea that a man is the only suitable candidate for administering the sacred meal is elitist. Also, eltistism in the church is found in another way! A man aspiring to the priesthood must study a pagan philosopher, Aristotle, for four years and then after that he must study one of Aristotle's pupils, St. Thomas Aquinas, for another three years in theology classes and thereby receive the equivalent of a Ph.D. degree before he can be trusted to say the mass and consecrate the bread. This smacks of intellectual elitism to me. Common sense (and the New Testament) tell me that Jesus did not want such a church that only accepted Ph.D. philosophers as his priests. Jesus picked common fisherman, many of them uneducated. Catholicsm has gone astray over the centuries from the teachings of Christ and invented man made elitist principles in contradiction to Christ's teachings. Praise Jesus for His humanity and His anti-elitist teachings! Thank you Jesus for leaving us so many infinitely great ideas in the New Testment. And Mary, Your Mother, spoke so well the same anti-elitist ideology in her magnificent Magnificat prayer of praise to Our Lord!

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:57 AM By Fr. M.P.
Bill Parks, the Blessed Virgin Mary follows God's Will always and everywhere. If any woman should have been a priest, it was her. But God did not choose her, nor did she ask. Why not follow her example? A priest is called "Father" because he is "in Persona Christi" - in the Person of Christ. As Jesus said, whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. It's really hard for a woman to be a father, don't you think? But they make great mothers! Why do you think that you know better than God as to whom to pick? Isn't that elitist in the extreme? The Mass is not a sacred meal, it is the very Sacrifice of Calvary in an unbloody manner which is brought forward into our time period. And it's not Catholicism that has gone astray, since God has said not even the gates of hell would prevail against it. But many individual Catholics have gone astray.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:22 AM By John L. Sillasen
Bill Parks, religion is a spiritual thing, but your posts indicate the utter lack of spirituality in your understanding. On the elitist issue, God is elite. St Aquinas was not a pupil of Aristotle, but of God. You belie the weakness of your argument in saying, "I do not see why ... ": Of course not, some of these matters are divinely revealed ... and it takes faith to believe them. Others are accessible by natural reason, but if you have hardened your heart against some of revelation, then it will block your reason from developing. Also, before criticizing Aquinas, why not actually put yourself to the trouble of reading him? Blessed Mary Ever Virgin was not addressing her Magnificat to an "anti-elitist ideology" ... your use of this concept indicates that you are hooked into Marxism.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 1:30 PM By Betty
That comment about priests not really being that busy really got to me. I always thought that they were busy, busy, busy all the time and I excused them from their rudeness to me by telling myself that maybe they were overtired or upset by something that had happened. How are they rude to me? By refusing to answer what I think are legitimate questions. Here's an example. A Book Club was stated at our church so I read the first book chosen and I thought it was awful. It was a novel about a young girl who is running awat from home. One of the scenes in the book was a gathering of eight women where they each passed a small portion of honeycomb to the woman next to her and said "This is the body of the Mother." I thought that was pretty awful so I asked in my innocence "Who chose this book for a Catholic Book Club?" The answer - " We all did.". I ask again "Who is we all?" He walked out of the room. That was the end of our conversation.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:44 PM By Bev
Betty: By the time we have women priests, there will be a cure for morning sickness.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:52 PM By Grisha
Betty - Is this the same priest you had trouble with about beating your hands on the pew in front of you during the gloria? Maybe you and he just have a personallity clash. Would it work out for you to deal with an assistant pastor or go to another parish till his tour is up? Just a thought.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 5:38 PM By Bev
I am wondering if most of the people who use this blog received their early education in the Vatican II church and are not old enough to have known the TLM Masses of the '50s. My husband and I were married in 1961 at a Solemn High TLM (that's 3 priests). I have the feeling that many of you learned of a TLM being celebrated, attended, and were "turned on." I realize there are some people of a reserved nature who feel uncomfortable shaking hands, and I agree there are some N.O.s being celebrated in areas, where there may be a lack of diocesan supervision, which are "over the top" liturgically. However I take exception to the immature and unchristian rhetoric on this blog, and I take offense at being called an "N.O. nut". Instead of being grateful for the restoration of the TLM, you now poke fun at those who prefer the N.O. How many of you have read Pope Benedict's letter, "Summorum Pontificum" and seen where the Holy Father treats the N.O. with respect and has no intention of abolishing it? Do you people realize this blog can be read by people across the country? I live in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and I have never heard of a "clown Mass" or dancing women at a regularly scheduled Sunday parish Mass. If you live the SF Bay Area. I suggest you try the 11:00a Mass at St. Mary's Cathedral in San Francisco for exemplary liturgy or the 10:30a Mass at St. Raphael's in San Rafael.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:07 PM By bev
I am writing to follow up on Grisha's comments about her pastor being a "one man band". This is very typical of diocesan or "secular" priests as they have been called. Some pastors are fortunate enough to exist in a financially solvent parish wherein they can afford sufficient staff, especially lay people, but that is not always the situation. (When religious order priests staff a parish, at least when it located within a city, there are usually three/four of them on staff.)...I recently heard an experienced pastor who had "broken in" many newly ordained priests. He explained that in the seminary young priests do have some free time, beyond what they need for studies) but at the parish they have even more free hours, and it is up to them to determine how they will use these free hours during the day/week. Are they visiting the sick, seeking parishioners who might need counseling etc.? His response was "some do, some don't".There are people in every profession who don't do anymore than they have to, and unfortunately this relates to the priesthood as well.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 6:15 PM By bev
Grisha, sorry I think I'm wearing out the editor today. Just wanted to thank you for your very clear responses on this blog. You and John L. Sillasen both respond in a courteous manner.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:15 AM By Grisha
John L: Regarding Dick Cheny's mishap, given the hour it occured, after 5:00PM, I've allways wondered if the group had'nt violated the cardnal rule that alcohol and firearms don't mix.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:50 AM By Betty
I can't tell you how tired I get of people suggesting that I should find another parish. I'm not going! This is my parish and I'm not leaving. Yes we have a personality clash. He told me that he didn't want to have anything to do with me and I told him that I didn't want to have anything to do with him either. Since then we haven't had any more personality clashes.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:53 AM By Grisha
Bev: Thank you for your kind compliment. You should know how however that I'm a guy, though I do try to get in touch with my feminine side now and then. Grisha is a Russian diminutive for "Grigory. and is a man's name. I believe that the only such name used for both genders is "Sasha" which is used for Alexander or Alexandra.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:36 PM By John L. Sillasen
Learn somethin' new every day! After five pm was it? Any daylight left? I have never handled a firearm while alcohol was in my system ... with one exception. About 21 years old, drunk, at home with parents away, all the neighborhood kids (whom I grew up with), nighttime ... I put a round into my Winchester Model 70, pre-1964, .300 Weatherby Mag, (wish I still had it) went out back and shot the avacado tree just below the surface of the ground. That neighborhood was the type with street lights and curbs and cookie cutter houses. To this day I do not know what I had against that tree, but years later it finally began to produce avacados.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:10 PM By Grisha
John L: I started shooting when I was 12 and at age 60, I've only violated that rule twice. When I was working Vice in LA County, we had staked out a bar for various ABC violations while a couple of guys from the squad roamed around skid row checking out the adult bookstores and looking for street drug deals. About 1:00 AM, the Sergeant decided to call it a night and sent me, the junior guy, to round up everyone. Hey I was 23 years old, in a Levi outfit, undercover, allowed to drink on duty and armed with a Colt Detective Special. I thought I was in Heaven. Then I realized that after 10 beers in four hours I was, to quote the California Penal Code "unable to care for my safety or the safety of others." Somehow I avoided getting into trouble. The other time was in 2002 at a Police Academy in Kazan, Russia, where our hosts took us to lunch with wine and vodka followed by a tour of the facility and then, refreshments, with vodka, after which we went to their firing range where we shot the AK-74's. God does, in fact, take care of drunks and fools. Oh well, as Archie and Edith sang "Those were the days."

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:14 PM By Bill Parks
A solution to the priest shortage (translated to mean Eucharistic shortage) would be to ordain men who have less education than at the Ph.D. level. Sad to say that the church has evolved over the centuries into an intellectual elitist institution where only doctoral level trained men can be trusted to consecrate bread and wine -- who have four years of philosophy and three years of theology training. This is not evangelical behavior whatsoever. It is the opposite! It makes the priesthood scarce by virtue of such extreme educational requirements. I want to be on Christ's side. He chose uneducated married men who were faithful (and who eventfully became very pious), but they certainly were not doctoral candidates which is the main requirement for today's ordination. Shame on the leadership in the church for not using God-given common spiritual sense to solve the problem of the priest shortage. You have an exaggerated notion of the intellectual requirements to perform the simple mass which is a celebration of the Lord's supper and not a doctoral level dissertation. This is like the message of John the Baptist. We are talking in the wilderness because no one is listening to common spiritual sense anymore to solve the priest shortage which is causing a very serious Eucharistic shortage and closing churches and closing neighborhood houses of worship while at the same time embellishing the grand life style and palace mansions that bishops live in. The perception of the common people concerning the Catholic faith is diminishing by the hour and like Nero, the leadership watch without the proper response while Rome burns.

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