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Published: March 23, 2008
“A devastating and catastrophic mistake”
Priests praise return of traditional Latin Mass; say discouraging its use for so long was an error
Priests in the Bay Area are speaking out in favor of the traditional Latin Mass, telling a secular newspaper the old rite has several virtues nearly lost by the Church.
"For a long time, I have felt that the Mass we're doing today is not as reverent," Fr. Lawrence Goode told the March 13 Oakland Tribune. Fr. Goode offers the traditional Latin Mass at 7 p.m. every first Friday of the month at St. Francis of Assisi Church in East Palo Alto.
 Goode has been celebrating the Mass according to Pope John XXIII’s 1963 Roman Missal for six months at St. Francis. He told the Tribune that he wants eventually to celebrate the old rite on more occasions. "It helps in my devotion," Goode said. "It makes me conscious of the meaning of what I'm doing. (But) I'm just beginning to get the hang of it." More than 40 people assisted at the Mass on March 7.
The Second Vatican Council, noted the Tribune, never banned the old rite of the Mass outright, “but it was gradually phased out.”
"We felt it was wrong to suppress it (the old Latin Mass)," Fr. William Young, who resides at Most Holy Redeemer parish in San Francisco’s Castro district, told the Tribune. Fr. Young says the traditional Latin Mass at the Chapel of the Most Holy Rosary in San Rafael. The chapel is located on the grounds of the St. Vincent School for Boys, a residential treatment center for emotionally troubled young men. Fr. Young told the newspaper that suppressing the rite “was a devastating and catastrophic mistake.”
“We were determined to do all we could to keep it from becoming something for antiquarians to study," said Fr. Young.
The San Rafael Mass is, currently, the only regular Sunday celebration of the traditional Mass in the archdiocese, which includes San Francisco, San Mateo and Marin counties, with an estimated 425,000 Catholics.
Fr. Young, who was ordained in 1976, said that before Pope Benedict XVI’s motu proprio last July freeing up the celebration of the old rite, "to celebrate it would constitute disobedience and disloyalty. Rome allowed the impression that the Mass was forbidden to continue.”
"The old Mass attempts to create a sense of the transcendent and the sacred," Fr. Young told the newspaper. "It attempts to create an experience that is totally discontinuous of ordinary experience."
Another priest interviewed by the Tribune, Msgr. Bruno Peschiera, celebrated the traditional Mass in Rome for ten years. "There is a great devotion," he said. "You see the respect for the Eucharist and for the things that happen at the altar."
Sixty-four-year-old Joan Favero of Santa Cruz told the Tribune the Mass is "just part of life. I don't think it's important to actually be part of the Mass as far as answering in English. Worshipping God is why we are there. Any other type of community or social activity can be after Mass."
Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 6:24 AM By Leonard
I was an altar boy under the old rite. I much rather attend and actively participate in the mass in English (my native language). I can more fully participate this way. I don’t need to be following along with a translation of the mass. AMEN…
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:18 AM By Janek
Amazing in just a couple of years since he became Pope Benedict the XVI with the Moto propio and his wearing of pre-Vatican 2 chasubles, mitres, the six candlesticks and central crucifix returned to the altar at St. Peters Basilica, Latin chant returning, the F.S.S.P., Institute of Christ the King, all swelling with seminarians and the waiting list a mile long
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:32 AM By Ramon Wals
A very grave error made by the post conciliar fathers to ignore the Traditional Latin Mass to the point of almost abolishing it. Thanks and praise God that our Holy Father Benedict XVI corageously issued the Summorum Pontificum, and once more the Mass of all Ages is restored in all his glory!
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:36 AM By Janek
This is truly the return of tradition and true restoration the Roman Church has been waiting for over 40 years in the wilderness. Yes, there are people like Mahony still wearing hippie tiedye vestments, his dancing girls, kool-aide pitchers, kiss of peace, hand holding, guitars, altar-girls, in other words everything that is not remotely Catholic. Take a look around and see for yourself the Traditional Latin Masse's popping up in diocese after diocese, and most important they are being performed by Archbishops and Bishops themselves, one could never have seen that a few short years ago under the JP 2 papacy. My thinking is many of these bishops understand they will soon like ourselves meet our Lord and they must explain to him why they let this crap of post Vatican 2 go on and on! Benedict the XVI knows very well what has to be done and with his new Papal master of ceromonies Monsg. Marini the old Marini with his Broadway shows he put on is out thank the Lord. Yes of course the Novus Ordo crowd is screaming to high heaven about all the lace, gold, Latin chant, kneeling, genuflecting, women and girls wearing mantillas on their heads, men in dress suits, well get used to it this is called the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church and Benedict the XVI is now leading it DEO GRATIAS BENEDICTUS XVI !!!!!!!
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:11 AM By Innocent III
Anyone within reasonable driving distance of Marinwood/San Rafael should make a point of attending Fr. Young's Mass sometime. He is a gem of a priest. Who else actually gives homilies defending the practice of clerical celibacy? If you would like more background on Fr. Young, he is one of the priests interviewed in the book, "Priest, Where Is Thy Mass? Mass, Where Is Thy Priest?"
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:39 AM By Mary Kathryn, hermit
Most of the "new Mass" errors come from a mythological version of Vatican II created by an ultra liberal faction and taught to all as "truth"; when I reread the Documents 30 years ago and found many of the things I'd been taught as "commanded by Vatican II" were IN FACT REPEATEDLY FORBIDDEN -- like passing the chalice and paten around (instead of priest giving everyone Holy Communion) I had to question my traiing and do my own remedial education by actually rereading the Documents and later Implementation Documents. The new Mass is OK but lacks the profound sense of our unworthiness and need of God's mercy that radiates from Tridentine. New Mass is rarely done as prescribed -- because so many priests were taught that it was wrong to be "slaves to the rules" and they had to be consantly "innovating". Essentially, their formation was "Mass is so dull you have to juice it up so people don't fall asleep.:" Those at fault are the ones who formed our priests in these errors. A 5th column? How did such an organized wrong interpretation of V2 come into being and get perpetrated in seminaries and religious orders?
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:32 AM By Kevin
I was an altar boy under the old rite. I much rather attend and actively participate in the mass in English (my native language). I can more fully participate this way. I don’t need to be following along with a translation of the mass. AMEN…
I suppose LEARNING the language of the universal Church is out of the question. It took me about 2 years of steady attendance to be able to follow the mass in Latin without the Missal.
100 years ago anyone that didn't know Latin AND Greek was an uneducated barbarian... come to think of it, nothing has changed.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:52 AM By Polneon
The error is in allowing the Tridentine Mass. If the Latinophiles want Latin, let them attend the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin...It is, after all the default language of the Western Church and it doesn't require a motu proprio, an indult or anything of the sort coming from the Vatican or anywhere else. I guarantee that all the Latin in the world is not going to remove the sin from the Church. There are those of you reading this who can attest to that.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 12:12 PM By Former Altar Boy
Leonard, I was an altar boy in the "old" rite (now the newly resplendent "extraordinary" rite) and because I know how to read the English ont he right side of my missal while the priest says the same words in Latin, I miss nothing. The traditional Mass is certainly more reverent than the self-centered Mass of Vatican II with all its novelties and nonsense not to mention all the changes NEVER called for much less even mentioned in Vatican II.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 12:15 PM By MILLTHORN
The type of mass, to me, doesn't matter if it does not move (or increase the numbers) Christians to witness in front of the abortion mills. That is the only way to end the slaughter of our Brothers and Sisters from being ripped apart in their warm little homes. The critics of Novus Order, gripe because they think griping about something they think is more important than being part of thes stalled Baby Rescue movement is going to improve their image with God or at least get a different form of entertainment. I rarely see example of Christianity in the public square. Where are signs of our Contradiction to the world? Oh yes, we write letters and articles, but for the most part--we preach to the choir--"abortion is naughty". Over 60% of Catholice vote the democrat ticket. If they won't give a spot of ink or pull a lever favoring the unborn being drawn to the slaugher, I suggest the start writing a script explaining to our Father in Heaven, these reasons for their selfish apathy.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 12:17 PM By simone_dubois
Janek, the FSSP came into being under JPll. He was an awesome pope. He laid the ground work for his friend and sucessor to prepare the world for this springtime which our wonderful Holy Father Benedict XVl is repeaing harvest. The novus ordo is beautiful, check out a good novus ordo mass on Mother Angelica's station. It's liberal abuse that has hurt that mass. I go to the latin mass and love it because of the sacred silence, reverance, etc. but the novus ordo is just as valid and I also like to pray in english as well as latin. Happy Easter all.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 12:35 PM By Diane
Thanks, Janek, for your comment above. However, Cardincal Mahony will not permit the Latin Mass in any parish church in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Does Pope Benedict XVI know what he is up to? Can he do something about it?
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 12:38 PM By Donald Casillo
I would not object to having the Mass said in Latin, but I do not want the Priest to turn his back to the congregation. Also the laity should be still envovled such as Eucharistic Ministers and Lecterors. Further keep the sign of peace.
We are community not individuals.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:09 PM By Janek
The ordinary form of the Mass in Latin is "not" the same Mass as is The Tridentine Mass, compare the two side by side prayer by prayer, rubic by rubic and it is not the same and as for the Latin haters this is the most common argument it is not all about the Latin, it is about how the Mass is performed and executed the Latin only enhances what is truly holy and nothing can compare to it!
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:22 PM By Janek
I never said the Novus Ordo was invalid, JP 2 had no choice but to create the F.S.S.P. because many were leaving to join the S.S.P.X. under the leadership of his Grace Archbishop Leferve, who will one day become a saint in the Church. The F.S.S.P. is a wonderful and holy society and thank god for them, they are bringing the true Mass back to our altars. As for the priest with his back to the congregation again another excuse,he faces East with the people to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Calvary. And no we don't need lay people i.e. women pretending to be priests giving out Holy Communion with their unclean hands this is the role of the priest and priest only as for lectors again, no need for lay people to be preaching to me this once again is the role of the priest.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:54 PM By Janek
Community? We go to Holy Mass to worship Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior not each other. That's the whole point, alot of Novus Ordonarians think this is a "social" gathering and forget it's all about Christ not them.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:30 PM By Denise
Yes, yes, by all means, have the priest turn his back on God, not the congregation. And the world has become a much better safer, kinder and more loving place since Vatican II steamrolled through.
As ye sow, so ye shall reap.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 3:14 PM By Fidelis
I suggest anyone who wants historical perspective do a google search, typing in "Quo Primum" and then read the whole document. Pope St. Pius V, following the SPECIFIC instruction (unlike PaulVI) of a valid Church Council, the Council Trent, standardized the existing rite of Mass, traceable to the early Fathers of the Church. In "Quo Primum", his promulgating document, Pius V used terms such as "this rite alone is to be used"; "in perpetuity"; "now and forever" (twice) "from now on". He stated that every priest "in perpetuity" has the right (no permission needed) to say this Mass. Furthermore, we, as Catholics, take too much for granted the importance of Tradition and what it really means. From the Latin (there is that word again, Polneon) "traditio", it means "to hand down"; until Vatican II and the post-conciliar popes, that meant passing on to your successor, UNCHANGED, that body of beliefs which had been handed down to you. The Novus Ordo was a complete fabrication by the admitted Freemason, Hannibal Bugnini, who was commissioned by Paul VI. The aftermath of this departure from Tradition (which departure includes the so-called "spirit of Vatican II) is obvious: decline in Mass attendance, emptying of seminaries, dramatic reduction in vocations to religious orders, the catastrophe that is Catholic education today (sex education in the earliest grades), clergy sexual abuse of teenage boys (homosexual in nature) etc., etc. The long-awaited return of the real Mass is a hopeful sign. The pre-conciliar Church had its faults, its members being human; but at least when we sinned, we admitted it in Confession, rather than taking the cafeteria approach of believing only what is convenient to our "lifestyle" while claiming to be Catholic.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:07 PM By Ann
It is evident from some of these comments that some of the laity are woefully ignorant of just what true worship of the Triune God means, etc. etc. Not their fault, since the "liturgical experts" in recent decades have hoodwinked many into believing THEY know what is the right way to celebrate! One hundred years ago, Pius X was asking for active participation in the Mass; obviously he did not mean the priest facing the people, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, lay cantors, guitars, drums, liturgical dancing, folk hymns, etc. etc. Now that the beautiful Tridentine Mass is again allowed everywhere, it behooves every bishop to educate the laity on the meaning of worship, true community, and most importantly, that the Mass is a participation in the heavenly worship.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:45 PM By HMacK
In all respect and with honesty, it has to be said that the pope needs to return to the Latin Mass of All Time too. Then, he will see the need to stop this post-conciliar obsession with ecumenism at all costs. Churches are emptying out very quickly as the NO service illustrates modernism gone awry in the church: we witness sacrilege after sacrilege in modern catholic churches and clergy who no longer have the proper catholic vision of the priesthood. The "vernacular only" mass, anathematised by the church long ago, is just not Catholic- it looks protestant, it feels protestant and it has had a disastrous effect on the church, long term.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:33 PM By Mary Teresa
Our two young children, ages 3 and 9, are far more reverent and well behaved in the Traditional Latin Mass. They pay rapt attention to what is going on on the altar and they sense that something sacred and mysterious, something truly great, is taking place. They feel much closer to God at the Traditional Latin Mass and the older one has absolutely no problem following the Latin. She knows the responses with or without the missal and she will be well ahead of her classmates when she starts a formal study of the language next year in the fifth grade at her Catholic elementary school. Of course, most of her classmates don't even attend Mass on Sundays, but I have a feeling that this is changing. We are at the beginning of a great revival. By the way, the TLM at St. Agnes Church here in Manhattan was standing room only today for Easter Sunday.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:08 PM By ssoldie
We were told the "old Mass" was forbidden, back alters had to be torn out, alter railings had to go ,kneeling to recieve our Lord was no more,we had to recieve in the hand,genuflecting no,no,a nod of the head si,si. LIES,LIES LIES, the fruits of Vatican II from the progressives, we also have a fabricated liturgy,according to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger,now Benedict XVI, and all those wonderful abuses, we could have clown mass,polka mass,folk mass teen mass, dance mass, but the "old Mass was forbidden. God in Heaven help us.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:19 PM By Mit-c
Quiet everybody! What's the quarrel all about? Why do I care which Mass is better? (But I watch Tridentine Mass at Youtube because I'm a protestant who is tired of happy clappy type of worship).
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:40 PM By Polneon
Janek:
The Mass without a community is not the Mass. Gone are the days when the priests would "celebrate" the Mass alone in a corner. The Mass is a community action called liturgy. Look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:58 PM By FHKJ
I went to a latin Mass in my city. It was terrible. One could not hear the priest who mostly mumbled the prayers. Does God really care what language is used for worship? I think not.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:10 PM By Robert
Thankfully, we have the freedom that Pope Paul VI wanted
to extend to all catholics has become fulfilled. In November 1969, Paul VI stated that he wanted the second, new Mass
set alongside of the Pius V missal. How long did Paul VI 's
new missal -- in Latin, procession of six candles to the
alter, awe-inspiring relation for protestants to grasp the
importance of liturgy -- a year, if that? While the rubrics
of the 2004 missal stem from the 1969 missal, they have
significant visual connotations. If someone should object
to the Pius V missal, for not being venacular enough, well,
Deo Gratias!
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:12 PM By Fr. Bob
Polneon: "The Mass without a community is not the Mass"? Sounds like heresy to me.
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 10:10 PM By Tom Canning
Seems to me that too many " catholics" don't know a lot about their religion and the difference between the two masses e.g -
The Novus Ordo Missae is the celebration of a meal - the Last Supper - when the host "presbetyr" sits with his friends ( community ?) - at a dining table a la Cranmer of the English Reformation - so it is essentially protestant.
The Mass of Pius Vth(Tridentine Rite) was canonised in perpetuity on orders from the Fathers of the Council of Trent around 1565 - and is an unbloody re-enactment of the sacrifice of Our Lord for our redemption on Calvary, celebrated by a properly formed - educated and ordained, priest who faces God his Father as an Alter Christus as do the rest on the congregation who face East also.
So if anyone tries to merge the two - he might have a real problem with that......as they have been trying to do that for years and at one time was called Novus Ordo Simplex !
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:50 PM By John L. Sillasen
"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word from the mouth of God" (Jesus).
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Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 11:57 PM By gaudencio
Tridentine Mass is great! Especially when one has ample preparation before going to the Mass like confession and meditation. Its the peace Jesus was talking about. Novus Ordo is also great as long as sanctity and revenrence are maintained. The Mass is not a substitute for profane entertainment. There are appropriate places for pop concerts and dance sessions. The Mass is a spiritual activity.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 1:21 AM By Veritas
I'm a sophomore in college and now only attend Mass in the Old Rite. The Novus Ordo Missae was the work of a man (Father/Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, credibly suspected of Freemasonry) seeking to remove much of what was genuinely Catholic from the Mass to form a sort of overdone handshake with Protestant "worship." It should surprise no one that several Protestant ministers advised its creation. It should also be noted that language isn't necessarily the biggest of issues here. I would find an Old Rite Mass celebrated reverently in the vernacular as infinitely preferable to the Novus Ordo. The trouble is that the essence of the Mass was changed to where the New Rite gives a Protestant air of reenacting the Last Supper with an assembly, when the Old Rite places emphasis on Christ's Holy Sacrifice AND how we partake of that Sacrifice in becoming part of the Body of Christ with Holy Communion. The Last Supper and the Holy Sacrifice on the Cross (and all Masses, past, present and future) are moments existing outside of time. They are not, never were, and never shall be prisoners of their age. The Mass is timeless; and this is something one understands in the Old Rite a great, great deal more than in the Novus Ordo.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 4:44 AM By eric
For those in favor of "keeping the sign of peace and Eucharistic ministers”, ask yourselves these questions. If you were standing at the foot of the cross and Jesus was suffering and dying before your eyes, would you turn away and smile at the people next to you and start shaking hands??? If you were there when Jesus arose from the tomb
would you be able to touch him or would he say "touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father". The priest’s hands are consecrated; only the priest can affect the change of bread and wine to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. The Real Presence is denied and the reverence and respect owed to the Body of Christ is denied by allowing anyone who is not a priest to touch the Blessed Sacrament. The priest's freely devote their entire life to God and for their devotion they ALONE are given the privilege to touch his Most Precious Body and we should not diminish their personal sacrifice by giving that privilege to anyone else
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 5:07 AM By Gene T
Vatican II was hijacked by radicals. St Pope Pius X and his successors all warned about the assault coming to the Church bringing w/ it a Passion like that of Christ's.
The age old Mass was illegally suppressed violating the Quo Primum of St Pope Pius V. Replacing the worship of God, we now have the worship of man masquerading as a Mass.
Read the two texts and you will be startled to note the complete un-relation to each other. Under the current liturgy,
The "spirit of Vatican II" whatever that is, opened the door to sacrilege and indifference and the devastation of the Church before She miraculously arises again.
To all faithful Catholics, the gates of hell will not prevail against Her. Pray for our Pope and pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. When that happens, all will be restored.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 5:32 AM By Fr. JF
Most people don't realize the what we have was not designed or mandated by the Second Vatican Council. The Mass mandated by Paul VI was created by an elite group of theologians and liturgists, completely breaking with the continuing tradition of the Church and the Roman Rite. Although both Masses are valid and equally holy, the Extra-ordinary form fosters greater reverence and and holiness in the hearts and minds of the faithful. Many people deny that there is active participation in the traditional Latin Mass. However, true participation is internal and NOT all this running around and doing "things" as we see in the new rite.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 5:49 AM By Fr. M.P.
The Tridentine Mass fully lifts one's heart to God, in a sacred manner. No hip-hop guitar or rock band music there. I would suggest that all attend a High Mass on a Sunday to retrieve the sense of the sacred, which has certainly been pummeled in the last 40 years. While the Novus Ordo is valid when said properly, it does not inspire the sense of the sacred in souls as well as the Tridentine.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:08 AM By Jacques
A mistake, yes of course, but also a deception since the Vatican's hierarchy complacently let saying the old rite was forbidden while Benedict XVI just told us it wasn't
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:10 AM By Peterk
"let them attend the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin."
good luck finding a parish that celebrates the Ordinary form of the Mass in Latin. You are more likely to find clowns, altar girls, guitars and who knows what else, but not Latin.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:14 AM By cathgal
I was very young when the mass was said in Latin...but I remember it was beautiful. as I greww up I saw them tearing out alter rails, people started "fast food" Communion, everything changed. People dressed more casually, left mass before itr was over or didn't bother going at all. The music was embarassing...so my whole life I wondered why "fix" something that is perfect! And I have been waiting until people got their senses back! Thank God!
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:25 AM By kris
"Janek: The Mass without a community is not the Mass."
Well you just invalidated all of the masses that priests say completely alone! But what do you expect from generations that have been so poorly catechised in the fullness of Faith. It's as if the entire history of the Church's 2000+ years was suddenly and self servingly jettisoned from its future generations. That history of great saints, martyrs, sacrifice, magnificent temples, miracles and mysticism is dismissed for casual, boring, faith lite in order to justify personal sin and forget the saving of souls. The fruits of which are now lack of any faith in the True Presence for so many and the total dismissal of True mysticism that has been replaced by new age experiments that lead to blasphemy and gnosticism.
How one prays certainly influences what and how one believes.
Can't people spare one hour a week to look at Jesus instead of themselves?
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:54 AM By Paul
RE the attached: What is the source of what Paul VI is said to have stated in November, 1969?:
Posted Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:10 PM By Robert
Thankfully, we have the freedom that Pope Paul VI wanted to extend to all catholics has become fulfilled. In November 1969, Paul VI stated that he wanted the second, new Mass set alongside of the Pius V missal. How long did Paul VI 's new missal -- in Latin, procession of six candles to the alter, awe-inspiring relation for protestants to grasp the importance of liturgy -- a year, if that?
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 8:08 AM By Andrea
It makes as much sense for a priest to face the congregation during Mass as it does for a fireman to face the people while leading them out of a burning building.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 10:18 AM By Terik Ororke
How can a 16th century Mass be "traditional?" What about all the centuries before that? To say that a Mass is the "right" one for all ages is to make the Mass idolatry. If anything the traditional Mass should be ancient and probably in Aramaic Why can one century claim to have the "traditional" Mass and in the 21st century we are not to have our own traditional Mass..think about what idolatry really is even in language.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 10:19 AM By Polneon
Jesus kept us in history when He said, "Do this in memory of me". He was commemorating the Passover (a historical event) at the Last Supper (Check the Scripture of the Sacred Triduum) the Church Herself reveres History as the holder and developer of our faith in our Salvation (The history of Salvation). To say that these things are moments outside of time is an oxymoron since a "moment" is a measurement of time. For you to reject the present practices of the Church in favor of something which only you want to conform is a heterodox attitude and makes your arguments for your position non-probative. Come back to us after you graduate.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 10:32 AM By Grisha
veratis ~ Presumedly you have a Roman Catholic Church near you that offers a licit, vald Tridentine mass every Sunday. What do you do on a Sunday whan you're traveling and one isn't availible. Miss mass? Go to an SSPX service if you can find one? FYI ~ the New Mass, in Latan with many of the older practices, is very frequently offered in Russia
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 11:08 AM By Janek
Mel Gibson said it perfectly, so for "2,000" years we were worshipping the wrong way and believing in the wrong things??? For those who want the Protestant service of Paul VI with hand holding, kiss of peace, altar-girls, dinner table, women lectors, no high altar, no communion rail, no crucifix, no kneeling, no "sacrifice" well have at it and we will have our 'true" Mass as it was and always will be. Funny thing is the High-Church Anglicans are leaving their modern un-Christian Episcopal Church and returning to Rome with their High Church Liturgy, tells you something does it not?
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 11:17 AM By Robert M. Selinger
The Briton Stigmatist, Marie Julie Jahenny, in 1902, was told by Our Lord of a "New Mass that was to come that would be 'Odious' in His site: Revealed by Our Lord to Blessed Anna Catherine Emmerick, the German Mystic, in the 19th. century - "The books of piety, the ancient formulas of prayer, the time-honored canticles of praise, were exchanged for modern productions as miserable and impious as were those by which the Missal, the breviary, and the ritual were replaced". Other holy persons also predicted a great apostacy in the Church and an abandonment of Catholic truth for the errors of Protestantism. Blessed Emmerick told of a time when the Church would return to Tradition but One-Third would not go back and would completely leave the faith - these to be replaced by large conversions from other faiths. April, 2009, the Novus Ordo becomes Immemorial Custom according to Church law - will God stop it - my guess is yes - we are close to some apocalytic events maybe.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 11:34 AM By Jerry, SFO
Is it not arrogance for the NO crowd to display disgust when the priest "turns his back to the congregation"? Have they bothered to understand why the priest turns to God instead of staying facing the crowd.
Take heed to what the Missal of 1962 says:
"The Eucharist is the sacrifice of the whole church;it is not exclusively the priest's sacrifice, but the property of the faithful also. The priest alone performs the sacrificial act itself, for only his hands are anointed and consecrated to offer sacrifices. He offers in the name of the faithful and for their benefit. Thus priest and people are at the altar bound together in a communion of sacrifice, and they offer not only the host and chalice, but themselves also. "The Mass will be a sacrifice for us to God, when we have made an offering of ourselves" (St. Gregory the Great)....The Priest will no longer turn to face the people after the Consecration and Communion; after the Orate Frates, the Priest, like Moses on Mount Sinai,has entered into the holy cloud and communes "face to face" with the Lord. His eyes and mind are directed only to the altar." (Roman Catholic Daily Missal 1962).
The NO mass and 'Spirit of V2 'is a compromise, a new creation, a rupture from the faith of our Fathers (Read the closing remarks to V2 by Paul V1). It reminds me of when Moses came down from the Mountain and he witnessed his brethren worshiping the golden calf. The idolaters justified their actions but they were not acceptable to God.
In my mind proponents of the NO Mass and 'Spirit of V2' are justifying the changes to Catholic teaching for similar reasons.
Who are we to believe, the Magesterium and Doctors of the Church for the past 2000 years or innovators of the past 50 +/- years? The answer is obvious to me. Catholics, learn your faith. If you have stopped obeying the precepts of our faith, repent.
Jerry, SFO
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 11:43 AM By Cal-Brian
One of my hopes is that when the Traditional Latin Mass becomes more prevelent, its reverence will influence priests in how the celebrate the Ordinary (Novus Ordo) form of the mass as well.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 1:17 PM By Janek
Yes, Blessed Catherine Emmerick predicted the abandonment of the Holy Faith long ago, many will return to the Roman Church and many will sadly reject it. The Novus Ordo elite show their total disdain for Christ when they say the priest must face "them" and not face East which means you face Jesus Christ himself. Funny how they call the Traditional Latin Mass and those who attend it elite, selfish, etc. but my friends who are the ones on their 'knees" bowing, genuflecting, hands in prayer, and wheather they are rich or poor they all are very humble before the Lord! This cannot be said of the Novus Ordonarians who think it is all about them, 40 years of this disaster called Vatican 2 is coming to an end thank the Lord, our Holy Father is hated already by the liberal Cardinals and laypeople who understand what he is trying to do, and that is to restore Christ's Church and all that belongs to him! Yes those out there will always hate the Traditional Latin Mass as did Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Bugnini and of course Satan himself who fears the power of the Holy Mass. I myself a sinner of course will stand with the Holy Father Benedict the XVI.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 2:41 PM By hollingsworth
Fr. Goode can only offer the traditional Latin rite Mass on the firsth Fridays.
1) That is hardly much a concession to traditional-minded Catholics in the diocese and,
2)It will not satisfy one's Sunday Mass obligation.
I would not call this any great triumph for traditional Catholicism
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 4:07 PM By Dan
However, Cardincal Mahony will not permit the Latin Mass in any parish church in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. ---this is not true. I understand now that there is a weekly Traditional Mass in Alhambra I believe at St. Theresa parish at 1:00 p.m., I believe. Mind you, this wasn't Mahoney's idea. Also, Fr. Bob: Polneon: "The Mass without a community is not the Mass"? Sounds like heresy to me. Do you remember Charles de Foucald? He lost his server, his friend, in North Africa and for years could not celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because he was in fact alone. I don't know the rules but at least back then you had to have a server to say Mass. So it seems Polneon is correct.
Finally, I do agree the Novus Ordo is boring for many but I blame very poor music and preaching for that. I may be wrong, but that's my take as a musician and former protestant minister.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 4:37 PM By CJ
I have a question: Fr. Young sounds like an outstanding priest- why in Heaven's name is he in residence at Most Holy Redeemer parish? If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the notorious "gay" parish that has drag contests and all manner of beastly perversion?? IMHO that place should be bulldozed to the ground and covered with blessed salt, or at least re-consecrated. I hope he isn't staying there of his own volition.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 4:40 PM By James Madison
A few thoughts, if I might. I do not wish to contribute to the harsh language that I have read from both sides of the argument but some points need to be enunciated to complete the circle. The state of the Latin Mass is somewhat better in the Oakland diocese. St. Margaret Mary offers the Mass every Sunday at 12:30PM in the Tridentine Rite and at 10:30AM(I believe) in the Novus Ordo Latin Rite. Immaculate Heart of Mary in Brentwood will begin to offer the Tridentine Rite Mass March 30 at 5:00PM and that is scheduled to continue on a weekly basis, based on attendance I am sure. If there are other Latin Mass services in the Bay Area, I am unaware of them. As to the Eucharistic(Extraordinary) Ministers, they were removed from participation in the Novus Ordo Mass with the publication of the GIRM a number of years ago. You can look it up yourself. The only exception is literally a Papal Mass. Indeed and I do remember this, you as a lay person are allowed to invoke Paragraph 184 of the GIRM to have them removed. You of course have to go through the local bishop and onto the Vatican which is why it probably hasn't happened. We still have three lay ministers for the daily Mass. Temporary solution-only receive from the Priest. As I read the Motu Proprio, Cardinal Mahony does not have a leg to stand on by denying the Latin Mass. Again, a lay person or group of lay people can petition the Vatican directly to have the Mass installed in their parish. I doubt anyone will do this because of the number of other options that are available Also St. Catherine of Sienna warns us about abusing the priests. God reserves that privlege to himself. Having being born,raised,educated,and married in the Tridentine Rite, I will give the Novus Ordo one point. The priests are a lot more approachable than they were under the Latin Rite. Finally, having a Latin Mass is only the first step, we need our schools(with priests and nuns teaching) back and all the other pieces that constitute the faith.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 4:46 PM By James Madison
A few thoughts, if I might. I do not wish to contribute to the harsh language that I have read from both sides of the argument but some points need to be enunciated to complete the circle. The state of the Latin Mass is somewhat better in the Oakland diocese. St. Margaret Mary offers the Mass every Sunday at 12:30PM in the Tridentine Rite and at 10:30AM(I believe) in the Novus Ordo Latin Rite. Immaculate Heart of Mary in Brentwood will begin to offer the Tridentine Rite Mass March 30 at 5:00PM and that is scheduled to continue on a weekly basis, based on attendance I am sure. If there are other Latin Mass services in the Bay Area, I am unaware of them. As to the Eucharistic(Extraordinary) Ministers, they were removed from participation in the Novus Ordo Mass with the publication of the GIRM a number of years ago. You can look it up yourself. The only exception is literally a Papal Mass. Indeed and I do remember this, you as a lay person are allowed to invoke Paragraph 184 of the GIRM to have them removed. You of course have to go through the local bishop and onto the Vatican which is why it probably hasn't happened. We still have three lay ministers for the daily Mass. Temporary solution-only receive from the Priest. As I read the Motu Proprio, Cardinal Mahony does not have a leg to stand on by denying the Latin Mass. Again, a lay person or group of lay people can petition the Vatican directly to have the Mass installed in their parish. I doubt anyone will do this because of the number of other options that are available Also St. Catherine of Sienna warns us about abusing the priests. God reserves that privlege to himself. Having being born,raised,educated,and married in the Tridentine Rite, I will give the Novus Ordo one point. The priests are a lot more approachable than they were under the Latin Rite. Finally, having a Latin Mass is only the first step, we need our schools(with priests and nuns teaching) back and all the other pieces that constitute the faith.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 5:41 PM By Jan2
I realized by reading this threat that many Americans, lay and clerics, have rediscovered the value of the TLM. So, just like the movie independence day, why don't you Americans "spread the word" so that other countries like ours will discover the beauty of this hidden treasure.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 5:46 PM By Ming
It is dispicable for Catholics to argue concerning this. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should display our union with Christ and the Communion of Saints to which we are included. It is ashame that the one that is to suppose to unite us with the church is causing dissension among us.
The extraordinary form of the one Roman Rite has never been juridicially abolish as expressed by his holiness Benedict XVI. The ordinary form which came out completely in 1970 however remains the norms of celebrating the liturgy. The ancient usage while restored by the decrees of the Council of Trent in 1570 has existed even before that as demonstrated by the missals of the 15th century and by organic development to the 4th century and the time of Pope Gregory the Great. In "liberalizing" this form of Mass, his holiness wants to regain the sacredness that was lost in the liturgical revolution and also to stop the abuse that is somewhat permitted due to the porous rubrics of the Missal of 1970.
Concerning the priest with his back towards the people, he in facing in the same direction with us, leads us in prayer to God as represented by the tabernacle, the house of God. The new missal actually permits this to be done.
The priest, in saying a private Mass is never alone. For God and the Church Truimphant (the Saints) is always with him in this litugical act. This is somewhat overlook upon.
It should be also noted that the argument for the "Latin" Mass (old usage) does not stem for the want of Latin but for the prayers lost with the new missal. However the use of the official language of the church is encourage as mentioned by Sacrosanctum Concilium to represent the unity of the Church.
Lastly the Vatican II document above actually said "participatio actuosa" which correctly translates as "actual/sincere participation" not "active paticipation". True woship is of the heart and is not by actions or gesture though they do help. One must pray the Mass not just see or act in it.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 6:19 PM By Maryanne
Sadly, the Novus Ordo Mass is not the problem. It is a beautiful Mass when celebrated properly. The problem is that some priests and bishops used Vatican II to push their own agenda. The changes and abuses they made to the Sacrifice of the Mass is scandalous. When the Novus Ordo is celebrated in accordance with the Rubrics, it is as beautiful as the Tridentine Mass in its own way. I like the Tridentine Mass but I love the properly celebrated Novus Ordo (with Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei said in Latin) Mass because I can participate fully in it. In the end the faithful win with there being the celebration of both Masses.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:30 PM By Janek
The saying goes that when the Novus Ordo is said properly it is beautiful, well it's been over 40 years since V-2 well when is it going to be said properly? Once again just because the Novus Ordo can be said in Latin does not make it the same my Mass it is not! People say for us to quit fighting for the Holy Mass of Pius the V well it 's also our souls we want to fight to save!
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:35 PM By Anita
It is O.K. that the Pope brought back the Latin Mass. It is really a gesture to welcome the Traditional Catholics to come back to union with the Holy See. I doubt he will try to have only Latin Mass and do away with mass in the vernacular. Personally, I prefer it in my own language(English) as it is more meaningful and invokes more of a spiritual participation. Just saying words in a foreign language or hearing them seems to me to be, just that, and not praying.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 7:45 PM By Anne
Fr. JF, you hit the nail on the head! True participation is internal. Those who object to the TLM "don't get it" - the translations have changed the words, losing the sense of the sacred, the words that should convey the supernatural and lift us to another realm.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 8:20 PM By JC
Pope Benedict has done more for the Catholic Church in three years than his predecessor. May God bless this pope and the one true church of Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 8:23 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Fr. J.F.
Are you so sure about "equally holy", I'm not and here are good reasons why:
" I will go unto the Altar of God, Who giveth joy to my youth.
Judge me O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy; deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man.
For thou art, God, my strenght: why hast Thou cast me off? and why do I go sorrowful whilst the enemy afflicteth me?
Send forth They light and Thy truth: they have conducted me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles.
And I will go into the altar of God: to God Who giveth joy to my youth.
To Thee, O God, my God, I will give praise upon the harp: why art thou sad, O my soul, and why dost thou disquiet me?
Hope in God, for I will still give him praise to Him, the salvation of my countenance and my God......"
Compare that to the entrance prayers said in the Norvus Ordo!
I dare to say, we probably would not have had as great a crisis in the Church as we have had if the Tridentine Mass entrance prayers had been recited daily by many now fallen priest! And there are many other greater prayers in the Mass of St. Pius V as well!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 9:24 PM By cez
Mass was boring. That was how I felt when I was a teenager. Then a friend led me to attend a Holy Mass in a seminary. The seminarians sang a lot of latin hymns in gregorian and polyphonic style. The Mass was extremely reverent. It was a Novus Ordo Mass with Tridentine flavor. That was my first taste of heavenly joy. My heart was never the same again. I never left the service of the church since then. Now I realized that what I really longed for has a name. Its called the Tridentine Latin Mass.
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 9:46 PM By Maria
I went to Easter mass and I was astonished that some people who went go in and talk to the person sitting next to them. It's like a show or movie they are waiting to see. I find with the New Mass it is boring with some of the preachers that say the mass as if it's a race. After mass in a different church I go to because of a really good Polish priest most people talk after mass and no sense of the Sacred. I do find people not from North America are definitely more reverant in our Lord's presence. Again, I have never been to a Latin mass but I heard the music and I love it and in english it sounds boring and cheapens it. Boring, boring, boring!
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Posted Monday, March 24, 2008 11:48 PM By Patrick
When we speak about the spirituality and theology of the Tridentine Mass, there is always somebody who equates that with a fetish for Latin language or believes the difference between that Mass and the Novus Ordo amounts to the priest facing the people or not.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:30 AM By Ben
There are a lot of Mexicans in my area who refuse to learn English, my native language... This created a need, in my parish, for a separate mass to be said in Spanish... which is fine. Most citizens here are not that fluent in Spanish (if they know it at all), so all the other Masses are said in English.
I found it amusing, however, when attending Easter Mass (and other "twice-a-year Catholic" Masses) that half the congregation didn't know what was being said because the Mass was said in both Spanish and English. Then, I found it even more amusing that many of the same people vehemently reject the TLM because it is in a language they couldn't understand.
It makes me wonder how they managed through the two Masses they go to each year.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:46 AM By Hattie
Thank God that eveyone knows the mind of the Holy Spirit and that regardless of what God directs the Councils to do, there are always those 22 year olds that know everything about the Tridentine Mass and what is good for the rest of us. Running to the past, will not change the anxiety of the present or the future. If II Vatican Council was not valid, then we are no longer the CHurch of Jesus Christ. And, while I respect the age and experience of an 80+ year old Pope leader who wants to return to the past for his own comfort, I for one am not willing to define the Holy Spirit in terms of my comfort or need, rather than God leading us into the future and in time to union with Him. Thank you.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:59 AM By C.K. Anderson
Thank you papa Benedict for your courage.
Yes, Latin Mass is very beautiful. The reverence for the Lord is more important than anything else especially the post Vatican 2 masses. There is so much disrespect by the congregation members in the church, coming to church with clothes not fit to meet the King in. Clothes good for the beach and family BBQ.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:35 AM By Russell
I attend the Latin Mass every Sunday in Tucson, Arizona with the Saint Gianna Latin Mass Community. We are a small congregation and do not have a permanent home church. We rent space at St Ambrose Church and because of this we have two Masses. One at 0630 and the other at 1:45 in the afternoon. Our Bishop supports us but because of recent problems has no money to help us get our own parish. There is a certain sacredness with the Latin Mass that I missed with the Mass in English. I believe that the English Mass came about as an attempt to win converts from other faiths. It failed. What happened is the the service became more protestant and just a community gathering.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:53 AM By Michael O'Leary
The Trinitine Mass is a blesing from GOD.I have a ST.JOHNS MISSAL printed IN 1950 .The english translation of the Trinitine Mass is beautiful and has so much meaning,I can see why the present day clergy love it,the following text says it all.
At the administration of Holy orders the bishop lays his hands on the candidates for ordination, calls down upon them the Holy Ghost, anoints their hands, and presents the sacred vessels to them.
They thereby receive, In addition to a plenitude of grace, the sacerdotal powers: more especially the power to offer the holy sacrifice and to forgive sins.
We read that the apostles consecrated Paul and Barnabas with prayer and imposition of hands (Acts 13 3), and in like manner Paul consecrated Timothy (2 Tim 1, 6). The sacrament of Orders was unquestionably instituted by Our Lord at the Last Supper.
The office of priesthood, to which a man is raised by Holy orders, is one of great dignity, but likewise one of no slight difficulty and of vast responsibility.
The priesthood is the highest dignity upon earth. It surpasses that of kings and emperors, nay even of the angels themselves. "For", as St. John Chrysostom remarks "the power of kings is only over the bodies of men, whereas that of the priest is over their souls." On the priest are conferred powers not accorded to angels; for to what angel was it ever given to convert bread into the body of the Lord by his word? And not all the angels together could grant pardon for a single sin. By his office a priest is only concerned with heavenly things; he stands between God and man: he lays our petition before the Most High and conveys divine graces to us. He is a mediator between God and man, the angel of the Lord of Hosts (Mal 2, 7) the messenger of God to make known His will to men. He is God's representative, His ambassador, His plenipotentiary, therefore whatsoever honour we show to the priest, we pay to God himself. Does not Our Lord Himself say "He that heareth you heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me" (Luke 10, 16). In fact St. Peter Damian says, God actually follows the priest, for what he declares on earth is ratified in heaven; and at His word the
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:17 AM By Janet Baker
To the former protestant minister who averred otherwise: mass certainly can be celebrated by the priest alone, without either faithful or server. The instructions may be found in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), No. 254. The GIRM are the rubrics, the rules, of Holy Mass. No. 254 states that it is permissible for a priest to celebrate privately.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:37 AM By Joe
I'm from the Detroit area, and our local parish offers both the Tridentine liturgy and the Novus Ordo each Friday. My parents are Eastern Rite, so I've attended that Liturgy as well. So long as the Church permits her children to attend the Tridentine or Novus Ordo, I don't understand the need to denigrate either liturgy. The Tridentine is very beautiful, the Novus Ordo (properly celebrated) is also very beautiful, and we receive our Lord at either Mass. Name calling and pointing fingers at one another about the "orthodoxy" of either rite is ridiculous. Let's stop measuring phyllacteries. If you love the Lord, you adhere to the Magesterium, and you try to be an obedient child of God and of Holy Mother Church, who cares if you pray 'Pater Noster' or 'Our Father' so long as you pray?
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:09 AM By richard
we have two priests at our church, one who is near 90, and therefore was trained in the traditional mass, and one who left seminary in the early 80's. The older Father's mass is beautiful;reverant, holy, said lovingly and as a prayer. The younger excises huge chunks of the liturgy and races through the rest,constantly watches the clock he's had hidden behind a walllight, and offers the Sacrifice as a mere formality. It is obvious that his training was abysmal. What happened in seminaries in the time between these two Fathers is indicative of the entire V2 fiasco- it's time the mass went back to what it should be- the solemn celebration of the Lords sacrifice for our sins.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:18 AM By JFK
Why do we fight about the mass? To save our souls! If we did not fight for this cause the TLM would be nonexistant! Do you mean to say that anyone who stands up for the faith is a fool and uncharitable because they disagree with the dismantleing of the mass, her beliefs and churches. I would like you to say that to all those martyrs who gave their lives to fight for the faith. And are you so young that you did not see how much distruction and loss of faith has happened because of V2? It's not just about the changes to the mass but also changes to the catecism. V2 did not leave even one stone unturned. When you were comfirmed ( I am assuming you are Catholic) did you not hear the part where is was said you become a soldier of Christ! As we all know a soldier fights for their rights and the rights of the people!
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:14 AM By Sam
I first learned about the Tridentine Rite a year ago. I totally love it! The Novus Ordo is good too if done properly. The best mass I ever saw was a Novus Ordo done in Latin at the Shrine in Hanceville AL (Mother Angelica's Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament). It seemed to take the best of both rites and combine them into one stunning, humbling, God fearing Mass. Praised be Jesus & Mary!
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:31 AM By J. C. Tzos
Diane:
No priest needs Cardinal Mahony's permission to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass. That's the beauty of the Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum. Too bad there aren't any priests who will challenge him. What would he do? Can he trump the Holy Father? It would be interesting to see what would ensu.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:52 AM By John L. Sillasen
It is such fun to bust bubbles: The only thing about past and present that is different is technology. People are no different. So, when we read things such as "that was in the past", or "we're moving into the future", what we're reading is some hair brained notion of ourselves and our environment. Politics addresses the social changes effected and affected by scientific development and its applications, and the waxing and waning of Catholic fervor ... but nothing else. One has two choices, one of which is God, and the other of which is the world. Either choice costs the soul everything its got.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:13 PM By Gabriel Espinosa
THANK GOD FOR BENEDICT! THROUGH THIS INSTRUMENT GOD WILL REVERSE THE TIDE OF DISGRACE WHICH HAS BEFALLEN HIS CHURCH SINCE VCII. IT'S ABOUT TIME!!
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:21 PM By S. Petersen
A great outpouring of the laity! Good!
Has any one of you heard of Dr. Rao and his position re: the Mass?
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:57 PM By John
Thank Goodness as the new mass is protestant and banal and worships man, not God
Why does the modern person always want everything easy, instead of having to actually work and strain to worship God and his Son who died on a cross
The Trads are growing in number while the new rite and the seminaries are empty because people want order and devotion in their life, and for the higher calling of salvation, the church instituted by Christ on earth for our salvation to decide after Vatican II that the "easy" road is the best road is an abomination
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:12 PM By hollingsworth
Janek: "The saying goes that when the Novus Ordo is said properly it is beautiful.."
Yeah, I've heard that over and over again myself. But what is so "beautiful" about the Novus Ordo Missae. They essentially stripped the prayers at the altar. They replaced the Offertory prayers with a rather insipid old Jewish prayer. They removed the Last Gospel. In all, about 35 prayers from the Old Mass were either changed or removed altogether. They turned the priest around and allowed Communion in the hand. I have yet to hear anyone give me a clear explanation about what makes the new Mass beautiful. I'm open to a clear explanation.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:41 PM By joseph
I have started going to a TLM in the Leeds diocese of England where the Bishops remain hostile. An act of vandalism of satanic proportions has seen the TLM virtually banned throughout the UK. It is wonderful to attend Mass where there are no egos, no noise, no "entertainment" and witness a young child, who attends with her father, place a finger to her mouth as she enter the small Church to make sure that her dad stays quiet!
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:49 PM By hollingsworth
Gabriel: "THANK GOD FOR BENEDICT! THROUGH THIS INSTRUMENT GOD WILL REVERSE THE TIDE OF DISGRACE WHICH HAS BEFALLEN HIS CHURCH SINCE VCII. IT'S ABOUT TIME!! "
I try desperately to believe that. But to turn the "tide of disgrace," you have to start by getting rid of many disgraceful prelates in high places. I have not seen much of that going on.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:09 PM By S. Petersen
A great outpouring of the laity! Good!
Has any one of you heard of Dr. Rao and his position re: the Mass?
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:54 PM By Bembo
"Tridentine mass" is a term which first appeared in the late 1960's. The mass which Pius V codified in 1570 is simply the traditional mass of Rome (the invention of printing made this possible), and as Pope Benedict XVI has said, the Church can never abandon what she has held as sacred for so many centuries. The Roman rite, like the Byzantine rite is part of the Church's tradition, ie something handed down.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:15 PM By John L. Sillasen
I found the new Mass beautiful in the sense that it gave me a transition to the traditional Mass. My first experiences of Mass, as a convert in '79, were celebrated in Our Lady Chapel in LA, by Fr John Taggert, CRIC, and Msgr John Healy: They followed the rubrics and did not "pull" attention to themselves but "moved" the focus to the Eucharist. Once I got out into the local parishes to see what Catholicism was all about, I began to run into the nonsense. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" (Jesus).
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 3:18 PM By John L. Sillasen
Dr John Rao? I heard him on tape a while back. And I recall him being an intriguing speaker ... in the best sense. Anyone who can make it through Oxford University, as he described it, and holds forth with Catholicism ought to be read and listened to.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:00 PM By Elmo
There was a very holy bishop who celebrated a very reverent NO next to our town. His good deeds inspired me to pursue priesthood. Then I was admitted to a European seminary. I was so excited I thought European religious life would be as holy as what I learned from history. Unfortunately the effects of VII has liberalized many of my Order's priests. I can't stand the admixture of the profane and sacred. No vow of poverty, too active spirituality (its hard to differentiate between a priest and politician by the way they talk), associating mostly with rich parishioners, etc. So I left because I cannot find the level of respect and reverence for the Lord I expected from them. I don't know if I made the wrong decision since I never found a traditional seminary after that. I'm still lay.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:23 PM By lester
I heard the joke passed around by insensitive dudes that the Pope is a German Shepherd. Well, I must tell you mocking catholics that you should be thankful to have a German Shepherd as guardian of your Church because Benedict is living up to that name: Lethal, strong, effective, focused, courageous ... and don't be deceived by his age. I credit my coming conversion to his defense of tradition.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:47 PM By John L. Sillasen
Was the apostle St. John the Evangelist who died in boiling oil at the age of 103 on Patmos? He must have had some fire in his soul and sharpness of mind to bring about martyrdom in extremely old age!!!
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:35 PM By Gabriel
As a Byzantine Catholic, I thank God for Vatican II because we finally came out from under the Romanizing and destruction of our own Rite by Catholics who have always treated those in the other Churches in UNION with Rome like step children and not really Catholic. We were ordered to restore our true practices and it made a tremendous difference in our Divine Liturgy. I can see how Roman Catholics might feel to have their traditions restored. Perhaps they had to suffer this to learn the lesson of empathy for others. As you sow, so shall you reap.
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Posted Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:30 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Gabriel,
One of the first Popes was an Eastern Churchman, a Maronite, Pope Sixtus! True knowledgeable Roman Catholics have never considered the Eastern Churches as "step children".
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:02 AM By JFK
I am a Roman Catholic who attended a Byzantine church for many years and respected there right and the very good priests in that parish. I then attended another parish when the word came in for the Byzantine's to go back to tradition. I did not see much cange in the way of tradition or devotion but there was a big change in the Niceen Creed. This change was the removal of the phrase 'and the son' (filioque). We were told in a note from the Bishop that this move was to go back to tradition. On further research and going to the official website of this Bishop I found that it was in fact a move to reunite with the Orthodox. This statement was purposely omited from the letter circulated at the church. If you think the Byzantine are going back to tradition I would warn you to do some research of your own. Read and find out what the traditions used to be and find out why they were changed.
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:00 AM By John L. Sillasen
Yes, JFK's point is solid. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son .... however, there are those including the Orthodox who do not believe this, and believe that He proceeds only from the Father.
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM By Christopher Zehnder
JFK,
The phrase "and from the Son" is not found in the original Greek version of the creed, only in a later Latin translation. The reason it is not used in the Greek, as I understand, is that the verb "proceeds" has a different, more specific meaning than the Latin equivalent. In Greek, it has the sense of "to proceed from a source," which, both Catholics and Orthodox say, can only refer to the Father. The Father is the source of the Trinity, since the Son is begotten by him and the Holy Spirit proceeds from him, but he is neither begotten nor does he proceed from anything.
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:39 AM By John L. Sillasen
Hmn, well then, I for one, will have to study this further ... guess I don't have it down pat yet. But then it's a tough one, seeing as the Orthodox and Rome are at issue over it.
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:44 PM By JFK
The original Eastern Rite Liturgy did not have this phrase in the Creed but it was added to show their union with Rome and separate themselves further from the heresy's of the Orthodox church. My point was V2 changed the mass so that it became more ecceptable to the protestants. They are making the same kind of changes to the Eastern Rite so as to make it more acceptable to the Orthodox. This was stated clearly in the letter on the Bishops website. I am a Catholic and believe in the dogma of the Catholic church, I am not about to profess a belief that is not Catholic but Orthodox!!
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 1:22 PM By Jimmy Mac
JFK: You are a Latin Rite Catholic, which is a part of the Roman Catholic Church, as are the various Eastern Rite Churches, including the Byzantine Rite.
They are as much Roman Catholics, i.e., in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as are Latin Rite Catholics.
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Posted Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:17 PM By Phillip
what we all must remember is that the new mass was originally in Latin, ad Deum, with altar rails. Originally, its main difference was in the response of all the people instead of just the server. But, over time people lobbied for vernacular, versus populum, The Holy Sacrament in Both Species and in the hand, and contemporary music. Again only a omissions such as the saints and the Blessed mother in the Confiteor and the entire laity responding were what was different.
Also, I know Fr. Goode very well, as he was my former pastor for many years. Fr. Young also seems to be a very holy man.
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Posted Friday, March 28, 2008 1:17 PM By Zweber
A common misperception is that the Mass of 1962 (by the way, not 1963) is the Mass codified by the Council of Trent in the 16th century. It is not. The 1962 Mass is better and more correctly known as the Mass of one John XIII. What is the significance? For one thing, the abolition of the second Confiteor, before the priest distributes Holy Communion. More importantly, however, is the insertion of the name of St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass. Two things with regard to the latter which show the significance of this: 1. The Canon of the Mass was not to be altered or touched; this was historically referred to as the "unchangeable parts" of the Mass. 2. St. Joseph is not mentioned because although he was the foster father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, he is nonetheless considered a saint of the Old Testament because he was deceased before Our Lord began His public ministry.
Call it what you will, but the 1962 Mass of John XXIII is one of many preludes to the dreaded Novus Ordo, which is no Mass at all. Thanks, but no; I will remain Catholic without compromise.
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Posted Friday, March 28, 2008 3:21 PM By John L. Sillasen
Zweber, Catholic means recognizing the authority of the Pope. The Church normally has one pope at any given time. The sitting pope calls the shots and is not bound by rulings of previous popes. They had their days, the current Pope is having his. Jesus speaks through the living popes, not through documents, which serve a lesser purpose. What you exemplify is rebellion against the hierarchical nature of the Church ... this is the current problem, chaos due to lack of respect for God's order of authority. It's better known as the "Adam and Eve Syndrome".
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Posted Friday, March 28, 2008 6:27 PM By Ann
I have come to realize that insistence on "English only" is an act of ethnocentric selfishness (maybe that's redundant). Five years ago I traveled to Spain, Algiers, and Prague. Attending Mass in all those local languages showed me how isolated I was-- and I understood what the old priests meant when they talked about the liturgy in Latin as being a sign of UNITY. Since then I have found and been able to attend the indult (now Extraordinary Form) of the Mass. Alleluia! When I recently traveled to Rome and attended a Mass with people of other languages, but we ALL understood the liturgy!
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Posted Saturday, March 29, 2008 1:49 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
John L.
How pray tell do you define "Infallible"? Is it only until the Pope who declared it infallible dies? Think again! Your apparent definition is "Modernism"!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder &Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:32 PM By FHKJ
When was Fr. William Young appointed Pope? He should be treated in the same manner as is advocated on this website for the Jesuits at USF. The Novos Ordo Mass was approved by the fathers of the Church in a licit Councl of the Church, approved by Pope Paul VI and is a licit celebration of the Holy Mass. Both forms of the Mass are licit according to our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI
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Posted Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:38 PM By Kathy
TLM is beautifully celebrated every Sunday at St. Margaret Mary in Oakland. It is worth the drive. The church is in the neo-gothic style, I think, and situated in a charming neighborhood. Confession is available before Mass and the music is wonderful. I'm not sure I would be inclined to make it my weekly Sunday Mass, but when I do go there, I feel transported. It is not an everyday experience. So when I find my presence of mind fading at the unfortunate banality of my local Novus Ordo, I trek over to Oakland for good, solid dose of heaven on earth. My sense of the sacred thus strengthened, I can participate at my local parish with a little bit more charity and peace...until the next time.
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Posted Tuesday, April 01, 2008 12:13 AM By Patrick
I'm glad to see that the traditional liturgy is now allowed again. More, unfortunately needs to be done to restore traditional Roman Catholicism, however. When I went to Seattle University the theology department was completely dominated by Marxist Liberation Theology, Gay and Lesbian Liberation theology and Radical Feminist Liberation Theology. This sort of thing is very common in most "Catholic" universities these days. Cardinals like Walter Kasper openly deny, in word and in writing, the divinity of Christ, His resurrection, His Miracles and that He ever intended to found a Church and no action was taken against him by Pope JP2 or the Church for decades. There has really been almost no enforcement of Church doctrine with in the Church for the last 40 years. A restoration of the old mass and music is very esthetically and artistically important, but a restoration of doctrinal authority is not even in the cards at this point. My reading of the writtings of Pope Benedict before he became Pope leads me to believe that he is a moderate theological liberal ( he is conservative compared to the Jesuits) who will not have the stomach to excommunicate thousands of false teachers in the "catholic" seminaries, universities, and bishops residences. If one is a traditional Catholic who would like both traditional liturgy, art, music, dogma and Church authority, then one should seriously consider leaving the Roman Catholic Church for the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. I have left and it has been wonderful. Eastern Orthodoxy is everything I though I was getting when I bacame a Roman Catholic ten years ago and did not get. Reverence, Beauty, Tradition and sound dogma and morals are all clearly taught in the Orthodox Church which is just as old as the Roman Catholic Church and has not been infiltrated by radicals and theological modernists. Give Orthodoxy a look. You will not be sorry.
Love in Christ,
Patrick
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Posted Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:23 AM By Zweber
Mr. Sillasen, oh...was John XIII a pope? Considering that that was the name of a previous anti-pope, and considering that the corpulent John of 1958-1963 attempted to change the laws of the Church (w/o respect to the Mass, question), I would have never guessed. Obedience to the Pope is Catholic; obedience to an anti-pope is apostasy. Please read the papal Bull Cum Ex Apostalatus Officio; it was mentioned as a reference in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 188.4, to be precise.
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Posted Monday, April 07, 2008 5:42 PM By Tom
Who took the Latin Mass away from the Catholic Church and made it a side show in the first place. Was it the Lay people! Was it the Catholic priest! (for they did what they were told to do. Was it Protestants, Jews or for that matter politicians. Just who in God’s Name took the Latin Mass away from us. The word LIBERALS for all intents and purposes are directly at fault. Be they religious, or political. They removed one of God's Greatest gifts to the worlds, away from the Catholic Church. WHY!!!! To please WHO!!!!
Now take a good look around you, and ask yourself, Who are those liberals. CHECK OUT THE MIRROR and you might realize that LIBERALISM is a SIN, which is the caused all of this. The extreme liberals are not the worst sinners, it is those who are half-hearted in their liberalism which are the worst sinners in liberalism. Make no mistake about it, TLM is back. And now that you know its back, its time for those of you who left it, to return. And when you get there the first thing you need to do is to repent of you own sins of liberalism, before you commence criticism others. Those who have never been to a TLM – don’t bother attending unless you interested. But if you are interested WATCH OUT. It’s Addicting
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Posted Friday, August 01, 2008 2:25 PM By MiamiMike
I am one of those Catholics who left the church years ago after the Vatican II changes. I even attended a Lutheran Church for a while, and found it a decent substitute but found nothing equal to the Holy Mass. But last December I discovered a Church quite near to my home which has been celebrating the Tridentine Mass for ten years! I started attended during the middle of Advent and by Christmas joyously rejoined the one True Church. It literally has changed my life. I recently discoved the Liturgy of the Hours and recommend it to anyone who has considered participating in this powerful form of prayer. You must get the full four volume version as it contains the complete Office of Readings. The second of the daily readings is normally by one of the Church Fathers or Doctors. They are wellsprings of theological knowledge and inspiration. The leather bound English version from Catholic Book publishers is well worth the price.
If anyone out there lives in the Miami area I can't recommend the 8:00 AM Sunday Latin Mass at St. Robert Bellarmine more highly. Our Church is centrally located on NW 34th St. and 27th Ave. Fr. Joe Fishwick is a wonderful priest who is devoted to the Latin Mass and whose sermons are always timely and reflective. The music is also beautifully done: Latin and traditional vernacular hyms and the chanting of the Ordinary and most of the Proper straight from the Liber Usualis.
If you are considering a Latin Daily Missal, I recommend the Angelus over the Baronius. They are essentially identical, but the Baronius is British based and the Angelus is physically a bit larger, has a much larger font for the Latin and contains beautiful written explanatory marginal notes throughout the Ordinary section that ever deepens your understand of the Holy Mass is a very meaningful way.
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Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008 5:53 PM By Barbara
Just a couple of comments pertaining to Fr. Young. First of all, he will offer the NO, but only in Latin, not the vernacular, due to the horrendous translation. Therefore, as you can see, he has not made himself pope. Secondly, he resides at Most Holy Redeemer in the Castro because that is where the bishop told him to live. ( What place needs a holy presence more than the Castro?)
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Posted Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:28 PM By Colleen
It was a sorry day when they took from us the Traditional Latin
Mass.
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Posted Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:06 AM By patrick white
If people want to talk about traditions, the Byzantine liturgy goes back to 400 ad where the Trinitine goes back the the council of Trent around 1500 ad. As an Eastern Catholic (Ukarnian rite) many of us believe the Roman mass including the Latin lacks the same substance as our Byzantine rite. The truth is all rites are equal and valid. the just have different traditions (notice the lower case "t") The Roman rite was always considered noble and simple. around 400AD you would have broght some of your farm animals with you to church. even the Trintine service went many changes in it 450+ year invention. I hate to say this but with same of the Traditionalist gripping about an angle statue here and the cross there, would Jesus last supper been a valid mass cause the apostiles didn't kneel? or cause Jesus didn't have an alter facing East? Jesus warned about traditions of man trumping Traditions of God. All rites are equally valid!
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