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Published: November 4, 2009
Breaking News! Natural Marriage Restored in Maine
The People Have Spoken
Despite being outspent by nearly two to one, the defenders of natural marriage are victorious in Maine. The battle in Maine was led by the Archdiocese of Portland and the National Organization for Marriage.
Yesterday’s election is the latest in an unbroken series of defeats at the ballot box for those who seek to redefine marriage. Whenever the people of America are allowed to have their say, they stand up in defense of the institution of marriage.
As of this writing, the margin of victory was 6 points, 53-47%. The margin may go even higher when absentee ballots, which tend to lean conservative, are counted. Polls had shown the race to be much closer than the final result. This is unsurprising. In an August 18, 2009 interview with California Catholic Daily, Marc Mutty, public affairs director for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Portland who served as chairman of the Executive Committee of Stand for Marriage Maine, said “It seems to be pretty universally observed that when this issue comes to the ballot there is a depth of support that does not appear in polling. This is because people are afraid to be labeled a “bigot” for their support of natural marriage. And that is a real fear. There have been well-documented cases of retaliation against individuals and businesses. This happened in California, and we know of cases where it has already happened in Maine.”
Same-sex “marriage” in Maine was supported by the governor, the legislature (which foisted same-sex “marriage” on the people), the attorney general, and the two largest newspapers in the state, the Bangor Daily News and the Portland Press Herald. The only people opposed happened to be a majority of the citizens. On Tuesday, the voters of Maine asserted their good sense and their right to self government.
The victory should be heartening for supporters of marriage in neighboring states (Massachsetts, New Hampshire, Connecticut)—all of which have had same-sex “marriage” instituted by either legislative or judicial action—never with the consent of the governed. In 2007, the legislature of Massachusetts even refused to allow a constitutional amendment proposing to overturn Massachusetts' court-imposed redefinition of marriage to be put on the ballot. This was in spite of the fact that a record 170,000 citizens had signed the petition. But the legislature refused to even allow Massachusetts citizens to vote on the matter. That’s because they knew the citizens, whom they are supposed to represent, don’t agree with them.
Maine was not the only victory for forces of marriage and life on Tuesday. In Virginia, pro-life and pro-marriage candidate Bob McDonnell defeated Creigh Deeds by 18 points. In New Jersey, a democratic stronghold, pro-life Chris Christie defeated incumbent Jon Corzine by 5%. Governor-elect Christie has also vowed to veto any same-sex “marriage” legislation that reaches his desk .
Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:41 AM By Rob
Yes - the anti-family crowd can be really proud that their campaign of lies, deception and fear of thy neighbor succeeded. What a sad day for Christianity.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:18 AM By Willi H
Praise be to Almighty God and the good people of Maine. We must gird our loins for the battle that is before us! The Radical "Gay" Rights activists will not be stopped by this victory alone.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:19 AM By tom byrne
Couple of notes:
1. 6 points was the same margin as Obama's victory, which supporters claimed was his "mandate" to remake America. Can we now claim such a mandate?
2. I am proud to see that an archbishop is called a LEADER in the fight against this evil. Could we see more join him, and not have Catholics have to play back-up to Evangelicals and Mormons on life and family issues?
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:22 AM By Anne T.
Gloria, gloria, hallelulia! Out God is marching on.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:00 PM By Sean
Fortunately, the amount of damage that can be done by uneducated, unenlightened and narrow-minded mythologists is comparatively minimal. It's a pity self-righteous, misguided "Christians" feel the need to take a position of imposing their beliefs (which they assume are Godly and correct, despite the presence of other, equally viable religions and the logic of aetheism) upon others. And yet they seem to love firearms. Good thinking there, folks.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:11 PM By Chuck Anziulewicz
I'm sure there are plenty of high-fives going around at the offices of the Catholic Diocese in Portland, the American Family Association, the Family Research Council, and all the other groups that promoted Question 1 in Maine. So to them, congratulations, you helped issue Gay couples in that state a setback ... for now. I still take comfort in knowing that sooner or later Gay and Straight couples in the U.S. will be treated equally. And when that happens, I promise that it will have precisely ZERO impact on your life, your marriage, your church, and your children. Your church will never be forced to marry Gay couples, any more than it is forced to marry non-Christian couples. Public schools will not be forced to "teach" about Gay marriage, any more than they are forced to teach about Straight marriage. And at last, Gay couples will finally be able take part in the legal benefits, protections, and responsibilities that our tax dollars have been helping to subsidize throughout the history of this country.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:24 PM By David Ames
Deuteronomy 21:15 states a man may have many wives even if he doesn't love them and provide for only the children of the wives of he loves. Is this a natural marriage as well? If the purpose of marriage is to raise children and to have both
a mother and father (male and female) there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with having more than one mother so long as there's also a father.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:28 PM By Peter
Amen to that, Chuck. Amen to that.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:26 PM By Anne T.
Chuck Anziulewicz, when homosexuality was decriminalize in California, we were sold the "bill of goods" that such things as same-sex marriage would never come up. Well, what did we get? The AIDS epedemic first and a fight to perserve marriage between one man and one woman afterward. Also, it was the Judeo-Christian institution of marriage between one man and one woman which put women and children on an equal plane with men. As a Jewish author has said, before that in many pagan societies women were mere chattel with their men having sex with whatever came along. Lesbians are finding that out in Canada where men are trying to get polygamy legalized. We were lied to before, and some are lying to us again. If "same-sex" marriage goes through, the next thing on the Gay and Lesbian agenda is to force all religions to marry them, but then, "Boom", polygamy will be legalized, and women and children will be back at square one. As the saying goes, "Once burned, twice shy." I and other smart women are not buying any of it. And in my last post, "I should have written "Our" instead of "out".
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:05 PM By Mark from PA
Yes, Churk, I am sure that Bishop Malone is savoring his victory. Isn't it heartwarming how they got money from people that hate gays in their "special collections?" I wonder if they warned the gay parishioners not to go to Mass on those days. Too bad that money couldn't have gone to help struggling schools, help poor parishes or help the poor.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:45 PM By VirgoPotens
It's always ironic to hear sodomites complain that Christians are "imposing" their beliefs on others by opposing gay marriage. Actually, in the beginning, God created man and woman. These two sexes complement each other and cooperate in the procreation of children. Later, the sexual desires of some people became disordered from their original purpose, and they burned with lust for their own sex. They then tried to impose their beliefs on the rest of us by seeking to normalize their relationships by law. We cannot allow people to thwart God's plans, or we will incur His wrath.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:05 PM By Anne T.
Mark from PA, you can help the poor by giving the tax dollars and tax breaks back to two parent heterosexual families instead of those in homosexual relationships and domestic partnerships, so they can take care of and feed their children themselves. You really care nothing about the poor.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:39 PM By JLS
That money that went to defeat gay marriage would have gone to help the poor if the gay serpent hadn't raised its ugly head. The reason there are poor people is because too many people and rulers prefer deviance such as gayness and abortion over helping the poor.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:43 PM By JLS
The claim by David Ames of Deuteronomy 21:15 is utterly false; it says something entirely different. Maybe Ames read some bogus translation ... gotta read the truthful works and not the slop served by those who prefer their own opinions over God's.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 5:47 PM By JLS
To Chuck A, gays certainly need to be treated better; for example, they need to know for their own salvation that such behavior is evil and will prevent them from the grace of God. The best way to do this is to kindly outlaw such activity, while explaining to them the reason for it.
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:18 PM By gravey
Hey, Chuck, Peter and Mark, Give me five! Now go to confession!
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:35 PM By JLS
After being pointed to Deuteronomy by David Ames and noting his incredulously errant interpretation, I read further, and discovered that he was headed towards one of the prophetic descriptions of the Crucifixion. Now, the Crucifixion is difficult to deal with, and so maybe Ames is experiencing difficulty seeing what the verses are saying because he knows they are leading towards the Crucifixion, which he cannot accept ... just guessing as to why he cannot see the authority if God in the instruction about the meaning of life and death. Deut. 21: 22 When a man hath committed a crime for which he is to be punished with death, and being condemned to die is hanged on a gibbet: 23 His body shall not remain upon the tree, but shall be buried the same day: for he is accursed of God that hangeth on a tree: and thou shalt not defile thy land, which the Lord thy God shall give thee in possession
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Posted Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:36 PM By MarkF
Anne T., you have hit the nail on the head. There are always adverse consequences when marriage and family law is changed. I think that why people fall for the line that "nothing will change" is that in the small sense of it, it's true. An individual homosexual "marriage" will not have a huge impact on society, but the very institution of this practice will change the fabric of marriage. I recall that when divorce laws were changed in the 1970's that we were told that divorce was good for kids. I'm not kidding, we were actually told this. I'm afraid it's the same way with same sex "marriage." The kids are always the ones hurt, and there are always bad unintended consequences.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:54 AM By Jeff
God will allow his gay and lesbian children to march on toward marriage. Even gays and lesbians are made in the image and likeness of God and are thus good. God couldn't have created 1000000 gays and lesbians if God thought they were disordered . To believe this you are saying that God made a mistake in creation. Rather we should be embracing all children of God all of whom have been made in Gods likeness.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 4:04 AM By Aaron
Laguna friends of mine, Ernie and Fred, have been together as a devoted gay couple for almost 50 years. Ernie died of lung cancer last month; Fred inherited his assets, including their home. Now Fred may be forced to sell their home to pay the Federal/state inheritance taxes, since Federal laws do not recognize civil unions or gay marriage. Federal laws categorize gay couples as complete strangers. There is NO legal recognition of their relationship. In a traditional marriage, if a spouse dies, the survivor automatically inherits assets of the deceased and pays no inheritance tax; this allows the surviving spouse to keep their home. The IRS treatment of gay couples is insanity: why should Fred, now an old man of 80 years, be forced to sell the home? It isn't right! It isn't fair! Laws need to be changed so these tragedies don't happen. If IRS codes recognized gay marriage or gay civil unions, these kind of tragedies would be averted. I know many of you become upset when equal gay rights are mentioned, but I hope Fred's story will help you understand the issue. Gay marriage was shot down in Maine and CA. So be it. I only want people like Fred to be able to live out his life in peace. BTW, both Fred and Ernie were devout Catholics who attended Mass regularly.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:04 AM By Aaron
To JLS: "The best way to do this is to kindly outlaw such activity." Your commentary is reminiscent of Nazi Germany where homosexuals were rounded up along with Jews, sent to concentration camps and executed. You really have a way with words and ideas - a true Christian moralist. Your expressed ideas are an excellent fit into Iranian Muslim society where gays are beheaded - homosexual behavior is against the law. But be careful: they also execute Christians in many Muslim countries where both homosexuality and Christianity are against the law.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:05 AM By Peter
Of course, I suppose some of that well spent money could have gone to keeping parishes open and churches from being sold and demolished for Walmarts and highways. But why would any bishop want that? Better to spawn hate than to maintain vibrant parish communities.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 7:54 AM By Chuck Anziulewicz
California Catholic's headline, "Breaking News! Natural Marriage Restored in Maine," is just about as absurd as it gets. How can you "restore" something that never went missing? Nothing ever happened to "natural marriage" or "traditional marriage." The vast majority of human beings are Straight (i.e. heterosexual): Always have been, always will be. And they will continue to date, get engaged, marry and buildl lives and families together as they always have, regardless of Gay couples doing the same. So-called "traditional marriage" has never been threatened. Even in states like Iowa and Massachusetts, where Gay couples can legally marry, absolutely NOTHING has changed for Straight couples. This notion that marriage equality for Gay couples somehow threatens Straight marriages is absolutely hysterical.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:07 AM By abqdad
It's interesting that the liberal crowd is trying to claim that the church is intruding upon THEIR lives, when in fact, they are trying to intrude on religion/God! If they want some type of civil protection, it's available in many other ways, NOT marriage! Marriage is a SACRAMENT ordained by GOD, NOT MAN! It is a set of VOWS between a man and woman before GOD, NOT MAN! So, to all of the liberals, I say, "STOP intruding on GOD'S 'rights'"! If you don't like what God has to say, don't listen! But, don't try to change God's rules and cast lies and distortions upon us in the process! Would you try to define "sharia" for the Muslims? NO! Well, how is this different? The problem is that you have NO understanding of the history or nature of marriage! You are ignorant and constantly demonstrating that ignorance at every turn!! If you want legal protection, get it in the proper way, and marriage is NOT the proper way! You think that it will somehow "normalize" your abnormality! Well, I'm sorry, but that is NOT going to happen! All that is needed is for you to look at your body, and it's obvious that your desires are "abnormal". That is NOT to say that you are "unacceptable" or "bad". But, in fact, your desires most certainly are "abnormal". (I'm sure that I'll be criticized by you for being truthful!) Abnormal is simply different, NOT "bad". Quit trying to deny the obvious!
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:12 AM By Sean
For those that elect to quote biblical verses in their arguments, bear this in mind: solid debate on any issue is based upon factual support. The Bible does not qualify as such. If you choose to believe the tales contained (some of which have limited basis in fact, to be sure) that is your right. But do not use it as a basis to defend the supposedly "immoral" nature of any human behavior: it is a series of parables set down by all-too-fallable human beings and cannot be logically used as factual support for any discussion. In other words, your interpretation of this book is your opinion, nothing more. That is, in fact, the nature of faith.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:36 AM By Grisha
Anne T: You speak of "giving the tax dollars and tax breaks back to two parent heterosexual families instead of those in homosexual relationships and domestic partnerships, so they can take care of and feed their children themselves." Certainly you aren't advocating social policy which would favor the children of straight families over those of gay families
when it comes to a basic like supporting nutrition?
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 10:46 AM By St. Christopher
"Chuck . . Mark . . .Aaron", America is not Nazi Germany, and Americans are not required to fully embrace social relationships that the great majority believe are economically, ethically, and socially harmful. We will see what federal courts ultimately do with the lawsuit nowing proceeding toward the US Supreme Court one day. Your protestations of the benign nature of complete acceptance of homosexual relationships are belied by the record in public education, religion, the arts and the like. Massive protest is being made by homosexual interest groups to force young children to sit through indoctrination regarding the normality of homosexual behavior and relations; Harvey Milk Day is being foisted onto the CA public, as well. The entire homosexual political movement does nothing, if not demeaning traditional marriage, religion, families, the government, the military, anything which does not embrace their sexual preferences and claims to normality. Avoiding support of homosexual relationships is not a sin. One can also pray for a change of heart, and behavior, of homosexual people without being called, or considered, sinful.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:29 AM By John F. Maguire
Well, Chuck, you'll have to bear with me here. It is from a CATHOLIC point of view -- sorry, not exactly, however, from your point of view -- that the CCD editors' headline discloses itself as absurd. "How," you rightly ask, "can you 'restore'
something that never went missing?" Chuck, given that God is the Author of marriage, your point is well taken. What God has authored in Maine cannot go missing in Maine on account of Maine's (former) misreading of the institution of marriage as gender-neutral. A misreading is a misreading. Here's how the matter, I think, should be put: What the people in Maine did was RESTORE TO THE CIVIL DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE the recognition that marriage is NOT a gender-neutral institution. In so doing, the people of Maine concur in 31 other state-votes to the same effect. ~ Evidently, Chuck, the CCD editors are prone to misstatement because they are prone, in the first place, to publishing hyperbolic headlines in the old Hearst style.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:54 AM By John F. Maguire
In further reply to Chuck: Again, from a Catholic point of view, it is EQUIVOCAL to declare, "Breaking News! NATURAL Marriage Restored in Maine" (emphasis mine). If God is the Author of marriage, then the word "Natural" is simply EXLICATORY of the meaning of marriage as naturally heteronormative, that is, as naturally comporting with the very constitution of mankind as sexually differentiated between man and woman. I take it that the Editors intend here to say (I would agree with them) that NON-natural marriage is a contradiction in terms. On the other hand, if the word "NATURAL" is not taken by the reader not to EXPLICATE marriage but rather to PREDICATE marriage -- I mean, as if there were really such a thing as NON-natural marriage -- then the Editors would be at cross-purposes, since their real purpose is not to posit any such thing as non-natural marriage as constituting marriage at all.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:40 PM By John F. Maguire
In yet further reply to Chuck: Any gender-neutral definition of marriage illegitimately relativizes the essential understanding of marriage itself; which is to say, any gender-neutral definition of marriage illegitimately relativizes marriage by confounding marriage with what marriage can never be (and still be marriage), namely, gender-neutral. Here, Chuck, we most emphatically do not agree. ~ What I want to do here, though, is add one more point about the CCD Editors' word-choice. Don't these Editors know that the common understanding/misunderstanding is that the notion of "natural" marriage is to be counter-posed to the notion of "sacramental" marriage? Don't these Editors know that this counterposition is not Catholic? To explain: For the Catholic Church there is marriage that is Sacramental in the ecclesial sense (on the same level of Baptism and Holy Orders) and there is marriage that is sacramental in the general sense. POPE LEO XIII puts the matter succinctly: "It was not, therefore, without good reason that our predecessors, INNOCENT III and HONORIUS III, that a certain sacrament of marriage existed ever among believers and UNBELIEVERS (emphasis mine). We call to witness the monuments of antiquity, as also the manners and customs of those peoples who, being the most civilized, had a finer sense of equity and right. In the minds of all of them, it was a deeply rooted conviction that marriage was to be regarded as something sacred." Chuck, Fr. Augustine Lemkuhl comments: "The term 'sacrament', APPLIED BY THE POPE TO ALL MARRIAGE, even of those of infidels, is to be be taken in its WIDEST SENSE, and signifies nothing but a certain holiness in marriage itself" (emphasis mine). See A. Lemkuhl, "Sacrament of Marriage," _The Catholic Encyclopedia_ (New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910).
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 1:58 PM By Jon
I cant believe these hateful people with their narrow minded beliefs imposed this unequal law upon everyone else by using democracy! How ironic is that? This group of biggots that are in the "moral majority" are so blinded by hate they spew lies and call names inorder to get their opinions across. Their igrnorance blinds them as to how intolerant they are of other people's veiws and they cant seem to respect opposing opinions. I cant stand intolerant biggots that name call...Oh wait arent those the type of intolerant comments supporters of gay marriage are making? Who really are the "intolerant" ones?
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:01 PM By JLS
Aaron, you lie once again. My comment about outlawing homosexual behavior is reminescent of the United States which defeated pro-homosexual Nazi-ism. But your deceptive homosexual agenda cannot face the truth, and you cannot even get your facts straight ... anything straight bothers you.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:02 PM By JLS
Jeff, your perverted image and likeness of God will not do you well at the Last Judgment.
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:04 PM By JLS
Aaron, you call your gay friends "devoted" without ascribing an object to their devotion. That's the same garbage as we hear from people who say "I'm so thankful" without mentioning God or any other object. And because you post extremely deceptive things, why should anyone believe there actually are such people as you list?
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Posted Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:54 PM By Joe
There is a paradox behind the gay marriage movement:
Firstly, most states are now granting domestic partner benefits. In other words, other than the words "Married", gay partners can have the same fiscal benefits as married couples. Marriage, in the US, is defined in a Christian sense, one man, and one woman. So, everything else being equal, why do Gays seek the approval of Christians, when, reading their comments, they so obviously hate the Church, and everything it stands for? Why bother? If you hate the Church, why do you need the blessing of the Church? Do you think the Church is going to change to bless Castro Street and the Folsom Street Fair?
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 1:41 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
The real question is: "why are those of you who are so opposed to the teachings of the Church when it comes to the sin of sodomy even on this Website? I don't post on pro sodomite sites, so why do you post on Catholc Websites?
Another question is: "how can two persons who apparently live in the sin of Sodomy, possibly gain from sacriligeously attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 8:46 AM By Aaron
To JLS: Your accusation that I lie is completely outrageous. I quoted you, then gave examples of other places where homosexuality was outlawed by governments. If you read history (which of course, you uncleverly overlook), you would know the truth: Homosexuals in Nazi Germany were put in concentration camps with Jews: gays had a pink triangle on the pajama uniforms: Jews had a yellow star of David. It is a FACT. Hundreds of thousands of homosexuals were KILLED along with 6 million Jews: THESE ARE DOCUMENTED FACTS! As for the story about Fred and Ernie, it is also a FACT! I would publish Fred's phone number, for you to call for verification, but I respect Fred's privacy. The IRS code I stated is A FACT. If you would bother to check things out, you would already know the TRUTH, but you, of course, have NO INTEREST in the truth. Joe: I DO NOT HATE THE CHURCH. My only interest is in equal civil rights! Changing state laws is of minor help: the REAL PROBLEM is at the Federal level, with tax situations like I talked about earlier: Fred has to sell the house to pay taxes on the estate of his deceased 50 year partner. These are FACTS, something that people seem to have trouble digesting-JLS calls me a liar! I quit the Catholic church because of hateful posts on CA Catholic. I come back to discuss ONLY equal rights issues and try to add factual material to the discussion.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 9:05 AM By Aaron
Kenneth Fisher: I also do not post on "pro sodomite" websites. I have no interest in wasting time-life is far too short. However, I post on CA Catholic to challenge the thought process of people who blindly follow religious dogma without considering that a consequence is continuing FEDERAL LAWS which cause tragedies like I mentioned earlier: Fred will have to sell his house, because FEDERAL laws do NOT RECOGNIZE gay relationships: Fred and Ernie were together for 50 years-yet Federal statutes do not recognize their relationship-in the eyes of the law, they are strangers. Regarding being devoted Catholics, Fred & Ernie, Tomas and I attend church regularly; even gays seek the solace of the teachings of Jesus Christ; we strive to be better Christians, just as I hope you do.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 10:17 AM By Grisha
"How can a married couple who apparently live in the sin of artificial birth control, possibly gain from sacrilegiously attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?"
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 10:46 AM By Sean
TO JLS:
Pro-homosexual Nazism? What history are you reading?
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 11:22 AM By Peter
Joe - Proponents of gay-marriage are not seeking the church's blessing; only that it keep its oppressive little quirks out of secular law . . .
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 12:01 PM By betty
I was glad to hear the good news from Maine but what's this about soome people who were afraid they would be labeled "bigots" if they supported traditional marriage in public? All politicians get used to the idea that they are going to be called names, saome unprintable names that are worse than being called a "bigot", I'm with JLS. One of the kindest thing to do with homosexuals who demand the "right" to marry is to explain to them calmly and without emotion that homosexual marriage is just wrong.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 12:29 PM By Sean
Kenneth:
As with all intelligent, open-minded individuals, people post on various websites in the hopes (however miniscule they may be) of raising awareness, tolerance and acceptance in those whose views may differ from their own (although in your case, it is obvious that your views are the only righteous, just and holy ones, no matter what contentions may be presented to the contrary).
You certainly are a rock, at least in that respect. It's a good thing God won't have to judge every soul by himself; he has you to assist Him. Just be careful and remember, judge not lest ye be judged.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 3:52 PM By Mark from PA
Mr Fisher, nobody has ever criticized my Catholic faith on any "pro-sodomite" websites. I have always been treated with respect there. Respect, tolerance and acceptance are good things in my mind. What makes me feel bad is the thought that Catholic gay teens will read some of the hateful views here. What do you people that hate homosexuality so much think it feels like to be a gay teen who is made to feel like they are a disordered and defective person and unwelcome in their church? Think of how these young people need love, support and acceptance from their fellow Catholics.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 4:29 PM By newz4i
Catholics: We Do Not Like Your Families Either.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 4:37 PM By JLS
More self incriminating evidence that PA lacks a considerable component of Catholicism in his life and does not even realize it. Maybe his nuns blocked out the part about Jesus saying if they are schmoozing you, then you ain't got the juice.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 4:41 PM By JLS
Kenneth is explaining Catholicism, Sean, which is not what you are proposing. Sean, the history I'm reading is the facts. The Nazis were rife with homosexual corruption in addition to their other moral and spiritual corruptions. The Allies including the U.S. defeated them, while having hard laws against homosexual behavior. You can go look it all up; I lived the era and know what the laws were and how they've been changed.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 4:42 PM By JLS
What is outrageous, Aaron, is your lying ... I've pointed out many instances of it, none of which you've ever replied to with fact.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 5:37 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Grisha,
The answer to your question "How can a married couple who apparently live in the sin of artificial birth control, possibly gain from sacrilegiously attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?" is simple, they can't if they receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord in such a state of sin!
By the way, who are you quoting when you use quotation marks?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 5:42 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
Why am I not surprised that "nobody has ever criticized my Catholic faith on any "pro-sodomite" websites". Why should they, you are in their camp!
Have you ever heard of the commandment, yes commandment, of Our Lord to "Admonish the sinner"? Was He guilty of what you people call hate?
Have you ever heard of "tough love"? Well that was what Our Lord was talking about, and it is something you seem unwilling to practice or probably teach.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 6:47 PM By Grisha
Kenneth: To follow up on Mark fm PA's comment, I've got to say that my non-Catholic gay friends, including a couple who are paid professionals in gay rights organizations have always respected my Catholic faith.
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Posted Friday, November 06, 2009 10:26 PM By gravey
Aaron says "I post on CA Catholic to challenge the thought process..." Sorry pal, this is a website geared towards Catholics who believe in scripture, tradition and the Magisterium. You may solicite a few prayers but for you to think you can "challenge" a faithful Catholic is just sad.
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Posted Saturday, November 07, 2009 6:02 AM By Peter
Mark from PA - You make a very good point. With the demographic aging of the church - or perhaps more to the point - american born chuch goers, you'd think this would be more of a concern.
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Posted Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:43 AM By Sean
Nicely stated, Mark from PA.
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Posted Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:36 AM By Rick DeLano
Thanks be to God! The sodomites outraised us 2-1, had 8,000 volunteers deployed, had the media and the politicians on their side....
and they still lot by a wider margine than California!
The tide is turning, folks, and the rules-for-radicals-Alinskyite talking points just aren't gettin' it done any more.
Bravo to Maine!
Thanks be to God for His gracious provision of our victory!
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Posted Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:46 PM By Mark from PA
Well Mr. Fisher, you seem to have the "tough" part down pretty well but may be short on the "love." Sadly, sometimes "tough love" isn't really love at all. One man that I spoke to told of his father's "tough love." This consisted of frequent beatings (including on his private parts but not generally on places where the bruises would be visible) and forcing his son into reparative therapy. The son's big mistake was telling his father, who was a protestant minister, about his orientation. Thankfully, most Catholics are much more tolerant than this man's father.
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:53 AM By Mark from PA
Mr. Fisher, I am troubled by your statement about "sacriligiously attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass." Are you saying that certain people should not attend Mass? Are you saying that gay people should not go to Mass because some people dislike them and find them offensive? This may be the position of Sedevacantist groups but not the mainstream Catholic Church. Who anointed you the judge of who is fit to attend Mass? Jesus said that he came to heal sinners, not for the self-righteous. Yes, sinners should be welcome at Mass too. Those who would deny Mass and the Sacraments to others need to take care of their own sins first.
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:46 AM By Aaron
JLS: "The Nazis were rife with homosexual corruption in addition to their other moral and spiritual corruptions." I suppose someone could say the church is rife with pederasty because of the misbehavior of hundreds, perhaps thousands of priests. Nonetheless, condoning pederasty is not an official position of the church, just as condoning homosexuality was not an official policy of the Nazis.
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:02 PM By Aaron
NY Times just reported that embedded in the healthcare bill is a provision to provide tax free healthcare coverage for gay partners. Prior to this bill, according to the NY Times, gay partners who were covered by their partners healthcare insurance had to pay income tax on the amount of this benefit, unlike married couples who received the benefit tax free. This IRS policy that treats gay partners as strangers, is the same policy that may force Fred to sell his home because he is unable to pay the income tax on the value of his deceased partner's estate. You are welcome to call me a liar, JLS, but as usual, you have no facts to back up your allegations. Every posting I have ever made on CA Catholic is factual. JLS fears the truth which might collide with his religious beliefs. All of us are free to worship and believe as we are led by our consciences. A difference of opinion does not constitute a lie. I do not deny that the teachings of the Catholic church exist, but I do not believe religious dogma should become government policy. I believe the Spanish government was absolutely correct to legalize gay marriage so that everyone could have equal civil rights, despite the howling of the Vatican
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:25 PM By Sean
JLS, you must have spent too much time meditating if you lived through the Nazi era; they rounded up and executed homosexuals in numbers American society cannot even begin to fathom (thank goodness).
As for explaining Catholicism, you are not espousing the credos of forgiveness and love inherent in the Bible; instead, you are proclaiming yourself (in the name of God) as judge and jury, fit to pass judgement on your fellow human beings. I'd condemn you for your unbelievable arrogance, but instead I feel nothing but pity, since you are obviously blind to the variety of beauty that colors our wonderful earth.
Vive' le difference!
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:33 PM By JLS
Aaron, lie number one: You claim that homosexual behavior is good. That is false. How many further examples do you want? I've already posted many such examples of your false, deceptive and lying statements. There is nothing trustworthy about homosexualism.
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Posted Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:11 PM By Rick DeLano
Well, Aaron, you can believe what you like, and we'll just get on about the business of defeating those who share your belief that government ought to jam a demonstrably insane redefinition of marriage down the throats of citizens without so much as a by-your-leave.
It's war, pal. Political war. No quarter asked, none given.
Let's go.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 9:23 AM By Sean
It's only a redifinition of marriage if you accept the one endorsed by the church. I'm curious, since our nation was founded on the concept of separation of church and state, how is it that church philosophy is now supposed to be the basis of law?
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 9:28 AM By Sean
And JLS, you have still not provided any facts to back up your claim; simply saying homosexuality is bad does not make it so. And citing a book that is revered by millions but disavowed by millions more of the non-Christian faiths is also not fact, but interpretation of a document created by men, not a supreme being. Even intelligent Christian scholars will not resort to the old "because it's in the Bible," because, agree with it or not, it does not provide any substantial support to your argument. You might as well say, "because I said so."
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 12:52 PM By Harv
JLS, Why expend so much energy trying to convince the gays and lesbians of their offenses against God? They have been well deceived by and are now working for Satan. Afterall these homosexuals are only going to twist, distort, and decieve us all the more, and try to recruit our children to fall into their sins too. Tell them straight and clear a few times up front, and if they refuse, then shake the dust from your shoes and lleave on their merry way to Sodom and Gemorrah. When it comes to their last judgement, they like we all will have to stand-up and account for our actions and lack of actions. God has made it very clear what His rules and religious practices are for entering Heaven for Eternity. If we haven't confessed our sins, done penance, and amended our lives to please God by following His Holy Words strictly before the moment of our death, then the swift judgement to be placed upon us immediately thereafter will be fair and completely deserving. All of the twisting and deceiving of God's written word will not justify our Lord, Saviour and Suprement Judge, Jesus Christ into permitting unrepentant sinners to a place of Eternal Salvation in Heaven. Our best armor is to pray the Rosary. It is so very powerful. Blessed Mother is more powerful than all of the combined devils in hell and on earth, and the homosexuals they control. We need to teach our children how to pray the Rosary so that they will not be afraid to resist the evil temptations and instead will put on their Armor of Light to save their own souls against the wickedness and snares of these devils. This is no joke, it is for real. The principalities of evil are seeking the ruin of souls. May God help us and our children before it is to late. Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 6:16 PM By Mark from PA
I can't believe some of the people here. Saying that people you hate are working for Satan. "The combined devils in hell and on earth and the homosexuals they control!!!!" "The wickedness and snares of these devils!!!!" "The principalities of evil!!!!!" Gosh, no wonder gay people get beaten up and even killed with people talking garbage like this. It seems that some here think that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is more important than the 4 Gospels. Isn't that a pity! Perhaps some need to read what Jesus said about loving your neighbor. But since some here seem to think that gay people aren't really human beings but agents of the devil they probably won't get it.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 6:25 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, two people of the same sex cannot and should not have children; it is unfair to the children. It is unfair for a child to be without a mother or a father even if it is not deliberate or unavoidable, but to put children in that situation deliberately through artificial insemination or adoption--and I don't "buy" your not enough two parent families theory--is totally selfish and without concern for the child or society. If a man or woman hates the other sex so much, the least he/she can do is not to punish a child with their mental problems. If a single person adopts they should have good moral values and not be promiscious, or get married to someone of the opposite sex so the child can have a normal family.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 8:13 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA,
You very conveniently left out this very important part of my coment " they can't if they receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord in such a state of sin!
You also seem want to equate tough love with brutality. What does that say about you?
Also, I never wrote that sinners should not be allowed to attend Mass. St. Paul himself wrote that mortal sinners who recieve in a state of Mortal sin are "guilty of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ". So according to yours and others thinking, St. Paul was hateful.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 8:18 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Grisha,
Re.: "non-Catholic gay friends, including a couple who are paid professionals in gay rights organizations have always respected my Catholic faith." would they do so if you gave them the teachings of the True Church on their sodomite life styles?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 8:25 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Harv,
The answer to your question if found in the commandment of Our Lord, and it is: "admonish the sinner"!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 8:53 PM By JLS
PA, your rant about gay people being killed is ridiculous ... that hardly ever happens. There are more kids kidnapped off the streets on their way to or from school and raped ... by far more of this, than your beloved fantasy of gays being killed in droves.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 9:05 PM By JLS
Harv, good point, thanks. The benefit I receive by dueling with these gay characters is the experience and insight into their particular personalities. This knowledge serves in helping me deal more effectively in a Catholic way with such people I meet daily ... who are mostly kids under the sway of this perversion hype running rampant in our society today. The gays, that is, on this board serve a purpose, which is to show what they are ... which is a political front. It is extremely insidious. It also provides me with a sharper discernment of the powers and forces behind this anti-Christ movement, which on the surface is the "gay" movement. Knowing your enemy is part of the preparation to dispatch your enemy -- now to forestall the protest from PA let me say that our enemy is not flesh and blood but the various powers and so forth that we can't see. But one learns to recognize them especially while arguing with their slaves such as the homosexuals and their sympathizers on this board. PA, for example, is extremely deceptive and subtle, and this provides an interesting gambit for me: It is a contest to see if he will ever come out of his gay closet into the light of God. Once in a while it seems that he peeks out for a moment, but then withdraws into the shadows. One day, maybe, his guardian angel may simply find enough of him peeping out to grab onto and yank all the way out. Besides, there are lots of people who read these blogs, and maybe these expose' treatments help others to recognize some of the seductive tactics used by the gays and other enemies of the Church.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 9:12 PM By JLS
Sean, I have posted countless examples from Catholic Magisterial documents, especially the Bible, and so have others here. A lot of these posts and threads build upon prior threads and conversations and arguments. Look through the archives.
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Posted Monday, November 09, 2009 9:23 PM By JLS
Sean, your concept of the homosexual community is absurd. Of course the Nazis rounded up and killed homosexuals, but not all of them. Homosexuals have no deep bonds with anyone including themselves. Most of them are disordered in other ways besides homosexuality. They kill one another. Is your belief that homosexuality is some sort of special goodness? That is one of the presumptions of the gay movement. There is no intrinsic unity or goodness in the homosexual community. It is only a community by means of its political agenda, which is based on hatred of the Catholic Church.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:59 AM By Aaron
Sean: Thanks for your clear statement. JLS: I have never said homosexuality is either good or bad: homosexuality just IS. From my own personal experience, I believe same sex attraction is normal/predestined for 3-5% of the people born every day. As you already know, I fought it for 60 years, begging God for deliverance. After my beautiful wife of 33 years died of breast cancer, I went into counseling for over one year; In the end, I finally accepted same sex attraction as part of my natural being- part of God's plan for my life. I am at peace with God and His creation.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:27 AM By Aaron
JLS: For the record, I believe promiscuity to be a dreadful sin; I detest the Folsom Fair as you do. BUT I also detest government policies that target homosexuals and do not provide equal rights. I clearly understand how important the word "marriage" is to Catholics; I don't care what it is called, but if civil unions between same sex couples are necessary for everyone to have equal rights, then civil unions should be approved by state and FEDERAL laws. No matter what anyone says on this blog, I remain angered at the Federal government that I was not legally able to sponsor Tomas, my partner of almost 9 years for a green card, because THE LAW SAYS you cannot sponsor a foreigner for US immigration unless he/she is your spouse. It is ridiculous that I was forced to move to Spain in order for us to remain together. As you already know, we have a 100% monogamous relationship.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:47 AM By Peter
Now, now, JLS. You flatter yourself. A political agenda? For most, destroying the Catholic church is an interesting hobby at best.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:06 AM By JLS
Aaron, your own lifestyle is completely promiscuous, because homosexualism is disordered. It is not in any way good, but totally evil.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:07 AM By Grisha
A few comments on the above posts. KENNETH: RE: Why do my non-Catholic, gay activist friends respect my Catholic faith if I "gave them the teachings of the True Church on their sodomite life styles?" first let me say that they, know full well the teachings of the Church on sexuality. One can only speculate on someone else's motivations. I suspect that Susanna is drawn to the solemnity and mystery of the mass. She speaks Latin and when we travel will find a Latin mass and translate for me. Like all friends, the gay people I know, have been with me through rough times and have seen the solace and care my family and I received from our Parish and the power of prayer from Catholic communities. As well, I think they admire the Corporal works of Mercy of the Church. Here in San Francisco, St, Anthony Foundation, Mercy Services Catholic Charities / CYO among others have taken the lead in dealing with the terrible homeless problem we have here. +++AARON: My condolences on your loss. How long ago was it? Let us all pray for a cure for this terrible disease.+++ ANNE T.: You may want to look at an article in last Sunday's New York Times about research which indicates kids are no worse off with gay parents than straight ones. I've got to say that I think kids are better of with two parents rather than one. I was raised by a single mother and it was hard on her. Again , my concern is that the Church isn't facing up to "the Great Lesbian Baby Boom" in Northern California and encouraging that these children of Catholic mothers are baptized and educated in our schools. There have actually been incidents where Catholic parents have tried to have the little children of same sex couples expelled. Fortunately in each case , the pastors have stood up for what is right. I'd also ask you to rethink your notion that gay people "hate the other sex" The only cases of that I've seen - far too often - is of straight men hating women.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:51 PM By Bruce
Aaron the devil has deceived you making you feel comfortable with this sin. God's Truth rings loud and clear in the most accurate Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans (Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible) Chapter 1: "24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause, God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also leaving the natual use of the women, have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient. 29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers. 30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents. 31 Foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. 32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them." St. Paul wrote this Epistle at Corinth, when he was preparing to go to Jerusalem . . . Which was about 24 years after our Lord's Ascension. The devil has a strong grip, though those holding steadfast to homosexuality may continue to refute this Catholic Truth, let's pray the homosexual sympathizers awaken to their plight and turn to following Our Lord's message. Pray the rosary daily and humbly for the conversion of souls. Earth is but a short while, Heaven or Hell is forever.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 1:58 PM By Aaron
A matter of opinion. We are in a 100% monogamous relationship; nothing evil about it.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:09 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, you haven't been listening to what Aaron is saying here. From the dictionary, the definition of promiscuous; "characterized by a lack of discrimination; specifically, engaging in sexual intercourse indiscriminately or with many persons." From what Aaron has said he was faithful to his wife and is also faithful to Tomas. So he is not promiscuous. Aaron, I am thankful that I never begged God for deliverance from being who I am. I thank God for His blessings to me.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:55 PM By gravey
Grisha, Let me respond to your comments. First, the point is that you know the teachings of the Catholic Church but you disregard those teachings because they don't fit your ill-formed views. Second, you should be praying for Aaron's soul. Third, The NYT article is pure propoganda, as the research proves just the opposite. It appears you are not "facing up" to the trend of lesbians having children. The Church must determine whether or not a child will be raised Catholic prior to baptisim (or any Sacraments). Clearly, in such circumstances the child will not. This is the unintended consequences of individuals such as yourself who reject and misrepresent Church teachings. You lead others into error and sin, Grisha, and thereby comprimise their souls.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:20 PM By Mark from PA
Anne T, in regard to you post of 11/9, 6:25 PM. I agree that if a man or a woman hates the other sex then they should not be allowed to adopt a child. However, most gay men and women don't hate the other sex. Many surely love and respect people of the opposite sex. They just don't want to be involved with them sexually. In regard to adoption, when people adopt a child they have to prove that they can provide an adequate home for the child. If a person, gay or straight, has drug or alcohol problems, picks up people in bars and lives a dissolute life then that person isn't capable of being a good parent. I think a problem here is that you tend to stereotype gay people and think they all live the same type of lifestyle. They have different lifestyles, just as straight people do.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:28 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, again I ask, "Why would any lesbian or homosexual who does not believe in the teachings of the Church want to join it or have any children join it?" That would be pure hypocrisy, or they want to join to cause trouble and turn the Church into something other than what it is. The latter, I believe, is most likely many of their real motives, and that is horribly hypocritical and sinful. Baptism is not magic. To use it for such is a sacrilege, and the person who artifically inseminates knowing it is against Church teaching most likely is guilty of the sin of presumption.They are presuming that God will fogive them if they go ahead and do it, but he will not, unless they are at least truly and honestly repentant afterward that they put their child in such a position and committed such a sin, and promise not to do it again and not to teach others to do it. It is the same with unwed mothers. They too must be repentent for putting a child in such a position and committing the sin of fornication, promise not to do it again, and make amends, or their confession is not valid. That is why good priest's will not baptize a child whom they do not think will be brought up as a true Catholic. The child is innocent; the unrepentant parent or parents is/are not. They are guilty of the sin of presumption. I know nothing about your mother, whether she was married or not when she had you, but your Catholic education is terribly lacking a great deal that should have been explained to her, then to you. Of course, she might have taught you right, but it did not sink in.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:29 PM By Anne T.
Aaron, if there are sodomous acts involved, the relationship IS evil.
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Posted Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:40 PM By Abeca Christian
Hey that is great, this is something to celebrate!
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Posted Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:53 AM By Mark from PA
JLS, I think you need to apologize to Aaron for your intemperate words. (7:06 AM) If you have been reading what Aaron has said you surely know that he is neither promiscuous nor evil. As Catholic Christians we are called to love each other and to me part of this is treating others with respect. Gravey, you say that we should be praying for Aaron's soul. Well, we all need prayers here, all are called to goodness.
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Posted Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:14 PM By Canisius
Garvey, here some advice dont even bother asking Grisha or M from PA direct questions that will paint them into a corner. They refuse to answer them, they are blinded by their love of sodomites, they see nothing wrong with that kind of lifestyle. They believe the Church's teaching are wrong and should be amended to fit what they believe to be right. They are liberals and incapable of recognizing Truth or Evil its their DNA they cannot help it
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Posted Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:07 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Bruce,
You are not the first one to try to quote real passages of the Bible to these slaves to the sin of sodomy. They refuse to listen, some have been taught by apostate priests, and others are just trying to convince themselves and others that the Bible didn't really mean what it clearly states. Only prayer will help them and maybe not even that.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:47 PM By Anne T.
Sean, it is well known to those who have studied history, that is not one sided, that there were many homosexuals in the Nazi party. All one has to do is read such historical books as "The Rise and the Fall of the Third Reich". Many of the weaker homosexuals were abused and killed by the stronger, more aggressive ones in the Reich. That is not to say that heterosexuals were not involved in the killings also.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 3:10 PM By Sean
Anne:
Of course, but the same could be said for any government before or since, including the U.S. And the fact that the Nazi's carted off and murdered thousands of homosexuals, makes them more firmly opposed to the concept than our country, wouldn't you agree?
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 3:11 PM By Sean
JLS:
I'm not disputing your Biblical references, only the fact that, in an intelligent debate, you cannot cite a document that is mythology as fact.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 5:39 PM By JLS
Sean, are you going to grab Anne's purse and hit her with it?
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 10:21 PM By Anne T.
No, Sean that does not make them more opposed to homosexuality, especially since many homosexuals in the Third Reich were murdered by other homosexuals. The huge majority of Americans do not and do not want to murder those with homosexuals tendencies. We just cannot approve of the sexual behavior--fisting, anal and oral copulation, and many other depraved sexual behaviors because it is against nature, injurious to the body, disease ridden and destroys the souls of the people involved and society. We will not call black, white, or purple, green, or a chicken a duck no matter who says so. We know that the majority of homosexuals who do such things have a problem with alcohol and drugs too, probably to lower their inhibitions, kill their consciences and get rid of the guilt. Sorry to others to be so graphic, but sometimes it needs to be said.
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Posted Monday, November 16, 2009 10:44 PM By Anne T.
By the way, Sean, it is a fact that certain types of HVP cancers of the mouth are far more common among active homosexuals than heterosexuals. Practicing homosexuals are killing themselves and we do not want them to take our children and grandchildren with them.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:38 AM By Grisha
Anne T: My mother? What does my mother's marital status at the time of my birth have to do with anything we're discussing here?
Anne, what's gotten into you? You've never written anything like that before. My mother went to Catholic schools from K-9 and was devoted to the Church,. She taught my sister and I Christian charity and demonstrated it by taking in children from dysfunctional homes and I could go on and on with examples. She also demonstrated defending the faith when Mormon missionaries showed up at the door to convert us. In her last months she was in a state of dementia, yet she remembered the Hail Mary and Lord's Prayer and as I wheeled her into the nursing home a few weeks before she died , she crossed herself at the mosaic of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Our disagreement is simply that I believe that uncharitable thoughts and actions toward homosexuals are dangerous and tolerated by too many conservative Catholics. For you to take that disagreement and allege I didn't learn the teachings of the Church or that I am qualitatively or quantitatively a bigger sinner than you and yours, is outrageous. -- Oh BTW. My parents married in late 1945 after my dad recovered for the malaria got in the Philippines. I was born in July, 1947
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:52 AM By JLS
Grisha, what Anne T. is saying is that your profession of faith as found in your posts lacks a great deal of Catholicism and is loaded with a great deal of secularism and gayism. Did your father teach you any Catholicism or was the teaching of the faith in your extended family relegated to only the women? Reason I ask, is that all your posts reflect a heavily loaded feminist religious content, void of indication that there was any serious emphasis by the men. It is an extremely sentimental sort of thing.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:22 AM By Canisius
Grisha- uncharitable thoughts???? hmm now thinking that sodomites are wrong is dangerous. Just as I have always known scatch the surface of a "progressive" and you will find a fascist. So Grisha are you now if favor of reeducation camps for those of us oppose the secular world view on sodomites which and adhere to teachings of the Church
Welcome to Grisha's perfect world Oceania...
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:35 AM By Anne T.
Grisha, you were the first one to mention that your mother was single at one time. I wrote, I repeat, I wrote in the e-mail about which you refer that I know nothing about your mother, whether or not she was married, but that your understanding of the teachings of the Church are terribly lacking. They are. To encourage homosexual behavior is a mortal sin, and that is what you do on this website.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 11:44 AM By Anne T.
Grisha, now I know your mother was married, but you did not make that clear in the particular e-mail I read. I neither accused your mother of being unwed nor did I assume she was when you said she had been single for awhile. I clearly stated I DID NOT KNOW. It is impossible to read everyone's e-mail posts on here all the time, as you well know. But your encouragement of homosexual activity by encouraging people to go to so-called same-sex marriages, etc., is abominable, regardless of what your mother did or did not teach you. And you have done it continually, not in just one post.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:00 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, in one of your post you gave me the impression that your mother might have been a single mom for awhile. I do not have time to go back and find the post, but that is why I said what I did about not knowing her marital status. You have made it clear that she was always married to your father. That should settle that issue. At least for me, and any bloggers on this particular article. My apologies on that one, but my comment about your stand on marriages between two people of the same sex and homosexual activity still stand. No apologies for that.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:48 PM By Grisha
TO: Anne: Thank you. First of all, as I've stated before I prefer Civil Unions (as do most Catholics.) I would attend a same sex marriage just as I would of a man and woman whom I fully expected would use contraception. God didn't appoint me to the bedroom patrol. I accept the teaching of the Church that sexual acts which are not between a husband and wife and open to the transmission of life are sinful. Where I disagree with some here is with a whole range of uncharitable words and acts toward homosexuals. My life experience has been that kind of thing escalates until there is violence and in some instances murder. TO: JLS - My father was a non-practicing Protestant , however during the war he attended Catholic Mass whenever there was an opportunity. My mother never would have considered herself a feminist. She was quite happy to have the Priests run the church, although that was also the period when the nuns, housekeepers, cooks and laundresses, did all the heavy lifting for them.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:58 PM By JLS
Anne T., I also remember that post which memory, if served, has him saying or alluding to his mother having at some point been unwed with children. I'm thinking that what we are finding is that sometimes his posts are lucid and at other times they are not. When he tries to explain relationship dynamics in his greater family, it gets confusing and seems maybe to change somewhat in different posts. It could be that his family has an "official" version of its history which is hard to reconcile with what Grisha actually observed. After all, his generation was known as the plastic generation for its hypocricy, its superficial fascade, its development of personas and hiding of real personalities. Without the sacrament of Confession, a soul has no way of getting rid of its guilt or the consequences of it, and society finds countless ways to hide it or make it seem good. It is hard enough when one frequents Confession to advance from "glory to glory" as St Paul says we are called to do, and outside of the Church there simply is no way to do so. The guilt builds and builds. So, if a Catholic shorts his contrition enough, then he or she will begin to slide into the realm of those who have so expertly hidden and disguised their sins, guilt and the consequences of it.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:12 PM By Anne T.
"NIce words", Grisha, but since marriage between two people of the same sex is an oxymoron and absolutely forbidden by Church teaching, one who attends one or encourages others to attend one is guilty of mortal sin. Christ demands actions. Grisha. Not words. Your actions contradict your words.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:31 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, the only time someone, especially a Catholic, could morally go to such a sham wedding of two people of the same sex is in a situation where people were injured and needed help, but to go just to celebrate the occasion is morally reprehensible. JLS is right. Clearly there are other issues about which you are not telling us. It does not matter. The past is the past. We have all done stupid things in our past. What matters is what we do and teach now. And you are teaching wrong NOW.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:31 PM By Sean
Anne, where in the world do you get this majority of homosexuals have drug / alcohol problems? You've got to be kidding, right? As for health concerns, promiscous sexual practices, be they hetero or homo, are indeed dangerous to those involved, but are not limited to gays (and won't have any bearing on your children or granchildren, unless they choose to participate in them).
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:30 PM By Grisha
JLS: Thank you for the psychoanalysis. My friend Mary the lesbian shrink charges $160 / Hr. You may want to consider going into psychiatry as a retirement job. Since you want to get my family background straight, and if the editor will permit me, here's the story. My mother's family has been Catholic probably since the time of St. Patrick. They came to America in the 1850's. My mother grew up in Fresno which was then very anti-Catholic. She was educated by the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet to whom she later sent my sister and me. My father's is English and can trace it's presence here in back to before the Revolution. My great-great -great (I think that's enough) grandfather was Amos Thatcher a spy and soldier for General Washington. Dad's side of the family was in the building business of one sort or another since the turn of the century. They are mostly non-denominational Protestants.
My parents dated a bit during and after high school. Then in 1940 my dad was drafted. They saw each other when he was on leave and had a drink at the Top 'o the Mark before he shipped out to Hawaii and ultimately the Attu Invasion.
She wrote to him throughout the war ad they married right afterwards. They were divorced when I was seven. It was somewhat achromous and we moved to LA when I was 12. My sister is a housewife in San Diego who inherited my mom's habit if taking in stray animals and children My daughter, as you know teaches English at a Catholic High School. On moms side we followed the Irish tradition of producing cops, soldiers, firefighters and Intelligence officers. We think about 20% of our first cousins are gay. Some of us are more active in the Church than others, though that's changed from person to person as time's gone by. A couple have become Episcopalians some have turned to the Charismatic Catholic movement and others still belong to good old St. Marks in Venice.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:58 PM By Mark from PA
Grisha, your posts are always lucid. You have never advocated sinful sexual activity here to the best of my knowledge. I strongly agree with you comment that God didn't appoint you to the bedroom patrol. He didn't appoint any of us to this. But I think we are all challenged to treat each other with respect and kindness. How wonderful it would be if people could just look for the goodness inside others instead of wondering what they are doing in their sex lives. PEACE
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:06 PM By JLS
Here we go, the font of truth, the gay lobby.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:07 PM By Sean
JLS:
Oh come on. You did not just make a "are you gonna hit her with your purse" joke. Ah, mockery, the last resort of the ignorant.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:13 PM By leo
The Catholic Church should give away its money to the poor not waste time and resources persecuting homosexual people or denying women control over their own bodies. Then again Rome has a long history of hypocrisy, persecution and above all woman hatred. I suppose the clerics don't want to compete with anybody who looks better in a dress than they do. I'm thankful that Rome is on its way out in the developed world, pity is that it, like the tobacco industry, now looks to the third world for recruits.
I wonder why Pope is so obsessed with the gay issue, could he be in denial? He's rumoured to be gay and his secretary Georg certainly is very pretty. Perhaps the Catholic Church should clear out the child molesters and women assaulting little perverts from its own clergy - let he who is without sin cast the first stone.............
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:31 PM By Grisha
So Anne T.:Would you attend a wedding even though, say at the shower, the mother of the bride got a little bit tipsey and let it slip that the happy couple planned to "stay on the pill" for anther two years till the groom fiunished Law School?
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:24 PM By Mark from PA
Grisha, thanks for sharing the family history. I find it very interesting. Blessings to you.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:55 PM By JLS
Grisha, I traced my family name back to 80 BC. They were not all Catholic. Some were Korean, some were middle eastern, some were West African, some were Spanish, some were Italian, and my branch turned up in Denmark. Some created empires, some ruled empires, some forged the Silk Road, some held out against the Saracens. Some were English, some German, some Irish, some Scotch, some French, some Dutch, some Texan, some Tennesseean, some Kentuckian, some Virginian, some Nebraskan, some Wyomingan, many were cavemen and cave women, an entire branch was ancient far eastern monastics, they managed peasantry, religion, governments, small cities, and there was a military tradition, some were Protestant, some were Catholic (no proof though), and some likely were Islamic and others Jewish, as well as various and sundry other religions and creeds. Some built governments, and various types of civilizations. Some destroyed such things. Perhaps some met when the asiatic hordes swept into Rome, perhaps not. One of their ancient languages was tonal, like Chinese. We wonder if my father's mother might have been Indian ... no records, and the European settlers into the old west even before the end of the Indian wars ... well it might be. Some moved like animals, some like statues. It is possible that my genes reflect the three original races of Ham, Shem, and Japtheth. I'm the only Catholic that I have found in my family tree. Ask yourself what it takes to do this.
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Posted Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:03 PM By JLS
Grisha, a couple of times I attended St Marks in Venice ... c. 1980. I didn't see any gay Irishmen there though. Everyone else was Mexican or Central American. I rode my ten speed there one evening to meet my Sunday obligation. On the way (many miles) a beautiful big German Shepherd raced out from the shadows and managed to get my ankle inside its jaws ... but when it bit down (not that hard), its fangs hit the metal clip that secured my pantleg from being caught in the chain. That dog was surprised and backed off ... you should have seen the look on his face. He had encountered robocyclist. BTW, PA wants to know why God has His faithful looking inside the sex lives of the unfaithful ... Scripture spells it out; there is nothing that can be hidden from God, Who takes a dim view of people in their perversions.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:47 AM By John
(1) The story of Sodom is not about homosexuals period.
(2) BALTIMORE — A preliminary report commissioned by U.S. Roman Catholic bishops finds no evidence that gay priests are more likely to abuse children. Researcher Margaret Smith from John Jay College of Criminal Justice said the study so far has found no connection between being gay and an increased likelihood of abuse.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:03 AM By markf
Grisha, I've been told be a solid priest that we are not to attend religious marriage services of people of the same sex. He explained it as follows. Religious services are not social occasions, they are prayers to God. Attending any service is a sign of your sacred approval towards what is going on there. Attending is a prayer to God of approval. You liken such a ceremony to one between a man and a woman who are sworn to use contraception, as if that makes it OK. Isn't there an expression that two wrongs don't make a right? My overall point is one that is likely to be missed here. The Mass, whether funeral or matrimonial or a plain ol' Sunday one is not a social service. It is not a place to show your support, friendship, approval or disapproval of anyone. It is a sacrifice to God. By attending such a service, which is inherently Protestant, you are causing scandal to the faithful and, even if you don't mean to, are participating in a prayer for actions that are gravely wrong.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:36 AM By Anne T.
Leo, who do you think was molesting the altar boys in the Church. Heterosexual women? Maybe one or two. The rest were men. Leo the apparel of the priests (even the ones NOT molesting children or or having affairs) is not women's apparel but men's apparel from the time of the Jewish and Roman era. Jewish priests wore what you call dresses, so did Christ. Tell a Scot or an actor dressed as a Roman legonnaire that he should not wear a "skirt" and see what happens to you. I don't think it will be pretty. The Scot will most likely smash you with a caber. And Grisha if I were already in attendance at such a shower, I would tell her about Natural Family Planning and the bad effects of the Pill on her body and our water system. Would I buy her the PIll, or approve her choice, "NO." Now I will exit this battle and leave it to others. I've got better things to do.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:36 AM By Grisha
Mark F: I think we're discussing things on a couple of different levels here . First, let me suggest that a priest saying "We are not...." should be listened to, however that is not doctrine, dogma or the Pope speaking infallibly. Second, It's a sad fact that far too many gay people have rejected organized religion of any sort based on experiencing the lack of charity of the type sometimes found here. As a result, many of the gay marriages I'm familiar with are, in fact, just a combination of a civil ceremony and a social occasion with nary a prayer to be heard. Finally, is he arguing that we ought not to attend ANY* service of another faith? If so he's taking the SSPX position and is out of step with the majority of priests, bishops and in fact the Holy Father. Your point about the mass is separate from the gay thing. The Church doesn't celebrate same-gender weddings, commitments, etc. I would however partially disagree with your comment "The Mass,....is not a place to show your support, friendship, approval or disapproval of anyone." One of the purposes of the Prayers of the Faithful is to support those in need through petitionary prayer. We pray for the sick and those in danger (Our parish always seems to have one or two people deployed or on orders to Iraq or Afghanistan.) etc. If it weren't so. we'd need not come together as a community and could fulfill our Sunday obligation via TV . You are right of course that such support and fellowship isn't the only or primary purpose of the mass which is to offer sacrifice to and give glory to God. ~~~~ * Editor and all, let me renew my plea that the system be modified, if possible, to allow 1) underlining, bold or italizing. I detest flaming (use of all caps to emphasize) and have in fact ordered my employees not to do it in Co. e-mails and 2) Find a way to allow posters to paragraph. Thank you.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:06 AM By Anne T.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 2357 says: "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, (140) tradtion has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law..........under no circumstances can they be approved." The scripture verses referred to in the 140 footnote are Genesis 19: 1-19, Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:10 and 1 Timothy 1:10. I would add the New Testament book of Jude.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:15 AM By Mark from PA
Mark F, I have gone to any marriage services of people of the same sex. All the weddings I have ever been to have been a man and a woman. I have been to many funerals in Protestant Churches and I never felt guilty about it or felt that I was committing a sin by being in a Protestant Church. I said the prayers and sang the hymns and felt that my voice was heard by God.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:32 AM By Anne T.
Grisha, I would add one more thing because it is important. I would tell the mother and the woman perhaps at an more opportune time about Natural Family Planning. One should not argue with a "tipsy" person, they do not think rationally. Quite frankly, I exit parties when there is too much drinking. Very few that I have attended end up that way. If I think they will, I might just send a baby gift for the child's sake if it is a baby shower. I do not go to showers for second marriages unless they have been approved by the people's churches.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:51 AM By Abeca Christian
markf we are not to attend religious marraige services of same sex unions, yes because it is also considered pagan not from God and we cannot condone such mock unions.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:29 PM By Mark from PA
I meant that I have never gone to any same-sex marriage services. But as Grisha has said, the Catholic Church does not perform such services so gay people wouldn't be getting married at Mass. I agree with Grisha that it is said that many gay people have given up on organized religion because they couldn't take the lack of charity and to be blunt they couldn't take the HATE.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:13 PM By JLS
The vestments are symbols of various spiritual realities such as purity and martyrdom, love and salvation. Vestments are not clothing, but religious garments that make holy statements.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:16 PM By markf
Grisha, would you say that when a priest told me that I would have to stop with my homosexual actions and to stop supporting the homosexual agenda that I was being discriminated against? I was told to stop sinning. I saw it as a question of which is my god, homosexuality or the living God. This situation is NO different from that of any other sinner. What is different is that we have an organized group that is spreading the lie that we are our sins and that we cannot stop. At some point my friend, we all have to decide where and whento speak what we know is true. I'd suggest that gay people have not been pushed from the Church, but have been lured away by something else.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 7:46 PM By Grisha
Anne T: My problem is not with CCC 2357 but the lack of adherence to CCC 2358. My experience has been that hateful words a can lead to violence and even the ultimate sin, murder. JLS says there aren't that many. Well it looks like we just had another one, this time in Puerto Rico. For one perspective, here's Kate Kendell head of the National Center for Lesbian Rights: On November 14 the decapitated, dismembered, and burned body of Jorge Steven Lopez Mercado was found by the side of the road in Cayey, Puerto Rico. Jorge was 19 and openly gay. He was much loved by his wide circle of friends. He was handsome and hopeful. He had his whole life ahead of him. While Puerto Rico does not have any history of prosecuting hate crimes, it is clear to many that there is no other explanation for the savagery of Jorge's murder. The response of the police agent investigating the crime betrayed an appalling level of homophobia and bigotry. In a televised statement, the investigator noted that "people who lead this type of lifestyle need to be aware that this will happen." This so-called "investigator" should be fired and never allowed to wear a uniform which implies he protects anyone, ever. It is impossible to imagine the pain of Jorge's family and friends. The shock of his murder has stunned the LGBT community in Puerto Rico. Jorge's murder is the direct result of prejudice, ignorance, and bigotry that still dominate life for so many LGBT people around the globe. For many, daily insults, fear, and brutality are a way of life.
Compounding this untenable situation is the fact that the very officials empowered to protect our LGBT brothers and sisters either turn a blind eye, are complicit in the terror, or actually perpetrate the attacks. Hearing these stories is almost more than a heart can bear." Anne - Reading this, it's really hard for me to get too worked up about whatever sins Kate and her partner might be committing in the privacy of their bedroom.
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Posted Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:32 PM By Mark Fr. Ca.
Researchers from New York's John Jay College of Criminal Justice on Tuesday (Nov. 17) presented initial findings from their multi-year study of the clergy sexual abuse scandal, which has resulted in some 14,000 claims of abuse and cost the U.S. Catholic Church about $2.6 billion in settlements since 1950.
After the abuse crisis rocked the church in 2002, Nienstedt helped lead a Vatican investigation of U.S. seminaries aimed at rooting out homosexuality, and served on a committee that drew up new sex abuse prevention policies for U.S. dioceses. He has also written that homosexual orientation is the result of childhood trauma.
Smith and her co-author, Karen Terry ( John Jay College), stressed on Tuesday that access to young boys, rather than a homosexual orientation, was largely responsible for the high percentage of male abuse cases. "It's important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior," Terry said. "Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity."
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 7:39 AM By JLS
Garish, the ultimate sin is not murder, but idolatry and adultry are worse ... For example, there are the first three Commandments against idolatry and a fourth against adultry and a fifth against coveting a neighbor's wife. Thus half of the Ten Commanments forbid idolatry and adultry, and only one forbids murder. Also, the history of the Law of God as found in Scripture (a Magisterial work for those of you who see these as separate) informs us that idolatry and adultry are the biggies that God hates and that murder is further down on the list of concerns. Abortion btw is all of these and not simply murder, as it is the worship and sacrifice to false gods, it facilitates adultry and it murders ... it further steals innocence from God's creation, dishonors parents and violates all other commandments. Shooting to death someone while robbing a bank violates two commandments; and shooting someone while raping them violates a bunch of commandments. Placing ideas and sentiments above God violates all that is holy ... it is idolatry and all else. This is why dissent from God's Law is the worst thing, the unforgiveable sin against the Holy Ghost. Dissenting Catholic priests are the most reprehensible souls on the planet ... as the devil led man into sin and destruction, so the dissenting bishops lead man into sin and destruction ... they are the most heinous creatures ever. This is one explanation as to why Saint Charles Borromeo, a bishop, informs us that the road to Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. Notice also that Saint Paul the Apostle shows us that those responsible for teaching the Gospel are required the most to be true and not dissenting teachers.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:06 AM By Life Lady
Okay, all of the people who are suffering with same-sex attraction, and posting on this blog, in an attempt to bolster your position, I have to say: PLEASE STOP. There is no way that we who understand and accept that God created male and female in His Image, there is no way that we will accept that God in His creating us all, intended that we misuse the gift of our gender in a perversion of it. He created us all as male and female, and yes, we are created in His Image and Likeness, which means that when we act within the understanding of the complimentarity of our gender, that we are acting as we were intended by God to act, as male and female. If someone suffers from same-sex attraction, they are suffering from a disorder, which was foisted upon them in their childhood, in their formative years as a person. We who understand and act within the heterosexual gift of male and female, we will pray for all of you who are suffering with that same-sex attraction disorder, but no one point of your arguments are convincing, or even rational since they are coming from a disordered place in the first place. Pity that you suffer, but in your suffering, there is the opportunity for redemption, and peace, when you move from acting on your disorder, and return to God and His original intention for you.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:22 AM By Grisha
Mark F: The term "homosexual agenda" was invented by social conservatives and not the Church. Homosexual activity is a sin. Supporting ENDA, our the Uniting American Families Act, for example is not and remains with the prudential judgement of each Catholic. If you have never been discriminated against - good. I was actually threatened with gay bashing by a couple of hoodlums ten years ago. Then there's Jorge Steven Lopez Mercado. Taking someone's life is the ultimate form of discrimination.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:41 PM By Mark from PA
Life Lady, not all people are XY males or XX females. There are also people with other chromosome configurations, such as XXY, XYY, XO and others. There is a great diversity in human sexuality. These people are part of the human family and part of God's creation too. Homosexuality is NOT a disorder or something "foisted upon people in childhood." Gay men are men, not women. Lesbians are women not men. Grisha, that was a horrible and heartbreaking story. Hate is such a terrible thing.
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Posted Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:49 PM By Tibor
Grisha, the "lifestyle" the police investigator was referring to was not the victim's sexual orientation, but rather his occupation - street prostitute.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 5:42 AM By Canisius
More secular nonsense from PA, homosexualality IS A DISORDER, it is not normal or just another lifestyle. It is a perversion that has been accepted by the secular liberals and now people like PA and Grisha demand that the Church changes its teachings. Truth is a powerful weapon,eh PA...Editors shows some courage and print this, unlike my other postings which you dont for fear of offending the "tolerant" liberals who troll here
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 5:45 AM By markf
Grisha, I like you but I can't allow you to do the ol' bait and switch on me. You said that gay people reject the Church because of hateful attitudes. Now you want to tak about thugs preying on homosexuals. The problem comes when ANYONE does not fully repent and try to lead a new life. To be blunt, what is so differnet about this sin that would allow someone to be allowed to keep on doing it with approbation when the rest of the population is told they need to fully repent? The problem now is that organized gay community feels that they have special rights that no other unmarried person has. This is the problem in the Church - the refusal of many to repent. And make no mistake, when most gays here that they are called to repent, they scream about hatred and discrimination, and point their fingers at others. And you also totally fail to account for the millions whose lives are ruined or lost through involvemnt with homosexual behavior. Gay bashing is a problem but it is a trumped up and misleading one, one that is is pushed and hyped to promote the behavior and to demonize opposition to the behavior. More have died from the behavior itself.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 9:54 AM By Anne T.
Sean, when you questioned my comments about active homosexuals being involved in drugs and alcohol, I can only speak from my experience--67 years of it- and that of others I have known. Most of the active homosexuals I have known, or people I know have known, were at some time in their lives involved heavily in alcohol, and/or drugs. Many of them got treatment for it, which I commend. Alcoholism and drug addiction seems to be lesser in the lesbian community from what I have seen and heard. Possibly because lesbian activity does less harm to the body in most cases. I have seen many women turn to lesbianism because of the behavior of their fathers toward the mother--cheating, etc. That does not excuse the behavior, but it does make it more understandable. The same thing can be said for some active homosexuals--cheating on the part of the mother. Sometimes it is both parents. That is not always the case, of course, and many active homosexuals and lesbians come from good stable families. Some were seduced into the lifestyle. The only homosexual I know who adopted a young girl called his relatives quite often for money because he was living way above his means to impress his homosexual friends. The relatives finally got fed up with it because they were not living in such grand style and had families of their own. Most of the time a relative told me she could tell the man had had too much to drink. Of course, some heterosexual fathers and mothers are guilty of that at times, too, but usually there is aother parent in the family to protect the child. Never-the-less, deep in our hearts, or subconscious, we all know right from wrong, it is called natural law, and we cannot blame our parents for our own sins, whether the parents were good ones or not, and all of us are imperfect, some more so than others. The story of Adam, Eve and the Serpent in Genesis should teach one that--whether one takes it literally or not. God punished each person for his/her/its own sin.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 9:56 AM By Anne T.
P.S. to last post. That should be the incentive for us to all behave, and homosexual activity, like adultery, is not the answer.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 10:35 AM By Sean
JLS
Anyone who, for any reason, thinks adultry and idolatry are more serious sins than murder is an idiot.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 10:45 AM By Anne T.
Thank you, thank you, Tibor, for clearifying that the investigator was only saying that taking part in street prostitution can be dangerous. People need to use their common sense. One of the reasons, Grisha, I exit parties when there is too much drinking, and I am not a total teatotaler myself, is that is when bad and dangeours behavior starts, and I want no part of it. My family also exits street festivals when the bad element (gangs,etc.) comes in toward evening. That is when most of the poor or criminal behavior and riots takes place. A friend of mine with her husband was in a downtown area of a large city when she noticed that most all the women and children were missing from the streets. She told her husband there was going to be a riot and that they should go home. He pooh, poohed the idea, but finally followed her advice. Sure enough, the newspaper told about the riot the next day that happened there. St. Paul in the New Testament (Romans, chapter 13) warned us about that. It does not excuse murder, but the investigator seemed to have given good advice.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 11:10 AM By Anne T.
Also, Grisha, is it possible that the young man who was murdered gave AIDS to someone or several people and he/they took revenge? Do you really know all the facts in this story. Please get all the facts before you yourself cause a "riot".
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 1:08 PM By Peter
I know the facts of the Mercado murder. No AIDS involved, bigot.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 1:20 PM By Peter
Please note that there are several candle light vigils being held around the country tonight and on Sunday for Jorge Steven Lopez Mercado & Jason Mattison Jr.
Mercado was burned, murdered, dismembered, decapitated and then his remains dumped. Mattison was a 15 year old, raped, and left dead in a closet (not gay).
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 2:50 PM By JLS
To help Sean avoid his coming coronary from running into the shocking news that he had it wrong all along, let me help him understand. Yes, murder is a terrible sin, but idolatry is worse, and sodomy is the result of sins. Sean needs to find out about life from the Author of Life, instead of just going along to get along rumors.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 2:50 PM By Abeca Christian
Sean calling someone an idiot just like you did on your last post is absolutely stupidity. All those sins you just mentioned are just as serious, if not just as equal! Thou should not commit murder, thou should not commit adultery, thou should not worship other gods etc etc....all equally immortal sins. God is the high almighty judge who decides what punishment they deserve! Now if someone commits a murder in self defense then it is not a mortal sin. God is the judge of all these grave sins, quit calling people idiots when it is not deserved.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 7:16 PM By Canisius
Peter the arbiter of of political correctness, will deem those who do not bow down at the altar of diversity a bigot. Like all leftist, he desires to make the State a god. Since the leftist ilk are in control good Catholics should be prepared to be martyred by the State in the near future. If they cannot make us reject Christ and replace him with their godless secular world, they will try to murder us. I will not go quietly. Editors print this
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 10:31 PM By Anne T.
Peter if it is bigotry in wanting the facts and all sides of the story then I am guilty, and so is every good judge, attorney and jury in this or any other country. Grisha, assumes automatically that the young men were killed because they were homosexuals. How does he know it was not a drug deal gone back? Do all of you have all the facts, or have you just jumped to conclusions? I know of a young heterosexual man who was tortured to death. Previously he was heavy into drugs. The police never knew if they killed him because he turned on the drug dealers, or it was a drug deal gone bad. And, by the way, Peter, I never said I approved of the murder. I certainly don't. Never-the-less, if one of the young men was a street prostitute, It is possible that all the investigator was saying is that if one engages in such ill-legal activity, sooner or later one meets someone who is as bad or worse than him/her. People who prostitute themselves or use their services are not exactly angels.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 11:30 PM By A
There is an article on the 365 Gay website called "Murder suspect thought Puerto Rico gay teen was a woman". According to the article Bermudez, the accused killer, met Jorge Lopez in a red light district, and Lopez, the victim, was dressed as a woman. Lopez got into the car with Bermudez and asked for money. When Bermudez found out Lopez was a man, he had a flashback to when he was raped in prison while serving time for domestic violence. Then he proceeding to attack Lopez.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 11:38 PM By Anne T.
A big correction to my last post: The accused murderer's name was not Bermudez but Juan Antonio Martinez Matos. Bermudez was one of the investigators. Anyway, you can read it online for yourselves by putting in "Murder suspect thought Puerto Rico gay teen was a woman" in your search bar. Jorge Lopez was in a red light district when it started according to that article.
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Posted Friday, November 20, 2009 11:45 PM By Anne T.
Another correction: Jose J. Bermudez is the district attorney involved, not the accused and not an investigator. It is late and my eyes are tired. Just read it for yourselves.
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Posted Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:28 AM By Grisha
Dear Mark F. Please keep in mind 1) my thoughts on hate crimes are informed by 10 years with a project which teaches Russian officials, mainly police, how we deal with hate crimes in San Francisco and; 2) I've two cousins who went to priests to discuss their homosexuality and received what I'd term "poor pastoral practices." and subsequently left the Church. As you've pointed out, in addition to the “push”, there was also a "pull" factor. The Episcopalians were waiting with open arms. My impression is that the majority of priests respond to Catholics "coming out" in a sensitive, loving and intelligent way. I'd love to hear what happened when you first talked to a priest about being gay. Now - what is different about this sin? The answer is that while our Church believes homosexual acts are sins; many other denominations believe sexuality, hetro and homo is a gift from God. In the US, sin and repentance isn't the state’s business but public safety is. I believe this comes down to two questions 1) should there be hate crimes laws? and 2) should sexual orientation, along with other categories be included? I’ll argue that there is a special horror when someone is targeted just for being them and that society can decide that these kinds of offenses are more serious. Why include gays? Because they are much more likely to be targeted than say redheaded people and because gays are less identifiable than, say, African Americans. Gay bashing puts all of us at risk. How big of a problem is it? JLS says very minor? I can only say that in the last year the FBI has reported that crimes motivated by the victim’s sexual orientation have gone up while other categories have declined slightly. Antidotaly I’ve been the victim of homophobic thugs and my straight attorney, who lives on the edge of the Castro, reports he’s more than once had hoodlums drive by yelling homophobic threats. Of course the organized gay community is going to publicize these cases. If they don’t, certainly no one else will. I’ve got some thoughts about the relationship between hate speech” and hate crimes but that’s for another post.
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Posted Saturday, November 21, 2009 12:05 PM By MarkF
Canisius, I don't see where Grisha says that the Church should change her teachings. I really don't see that at all. I don't agree with everything he says, but he seems to be a good and sincere Catholic. Our disagreements are on the level of what should we do, and how should we carry out our faith. I'm sure the apostles had their own disagreements so my advice to you might be to not be so ready to shoot to kill so much.
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Posted Saturday, November 21, 2009 2:30 PM By Mark from PA
Anne, your comment of 11/20, 9:54 AM, was very interesting. Perhaps you will smile at my comment. When I was in high school most of the guys in my class smoked pot, experimented with drugs and drank. I did not. I was considered one of the "straights." Most of the people in my family drink but I rarely do. I never used drugs either and when I was in high school and college some people looked down on the kids that didn't use drugs. I didn't believe in pre-marital sex either so I was a chaste teen and young adult. Some gay people abuse drugs and alcohol and some straight people do also. The reason I comment here is because I think that all persons are individuals and should not be stereotyped. All people are God's children and deserve to be treated with respect. I know some people get tired of hearing this but it is how I feel. My orientation is something that is inborn in me. It is how God made me. I am a devout Catholic but I do not feel that I have to repent for being the way I am, the way God made me.
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Posted Saturday, November 21, 2009 2:38 PM By Anne T.
Grisha, all horible crime is "hate" crime as far as I am and many others are concerned--whether the person is heterosexual, homosexual, black, white or purple. Some have just made it a political issue to keep themselves in power. Is the Jorge Mecado murder a hate crime? Sure it is. Was the murder of the black man drug behind a truck a "hate" crime? Sure it was. Is the murder of ANYONE a "hate" crime? Sure it is. The murderer should be charged with all that they did to the person, battery, maiming, torture, and murder. There were already enough laws on the books in most states to put such criminals in jail for a lifetime or for them to be excecuted, but some just want to make a political issue out of it.
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Posted Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:31 PM By Anne T.
Mark if you noticed, I did not sterotype all homosexuals and lesbians, only told what I had seen and heard first hand. Also, I did not leave out the sins of heterosexuals.
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Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 6:50 PM By MarkF
Grisha, I can see that hate crimes are a problem, but isn’t the larger problem the dangers that come from homosexual behavior? I don’t understand why you won’t look at the larger picture. What I’d like to ask you is what do you think that sin is. Does God make laws that are meaningless traps for us to either achieve or fail at? Or is sin something more serious? Does something that is sinful harm us or not? The question here is one of faith, and I’m asking to you to deepen your faith. Sin, any sin, is something that harms us spiritually, and almost always something that harms us physically and emotionally. You really don’t seem to accept that, and have not showed any inkling of the dangers of homosexual behavior. To be blunt, I think you’re showing a lack of faith in God when you don’t acknowledge that, when you talk about your cousins who are “happy homosexuals”, when you act is if the main problem with homosexuality comes from the outside world, abetted by the Church. I think you’re afraid to be labeled as “bigoted” by homosexuals if you speak up. The Pope is calling on us all to speak the truth with compassion. He is asking us to not let compassion overrule the truth. And that gets us back to what you think is the truth about homosexual behavior. Is it a harmless little no-no, of little consequence? Sort of like a white lie?
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Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 6:51 PM By MarkF
Is it just morally wrong but not dangerous to the individual? Or if you believe that it is dangerous but you believe as Cain did that we are not our brother’s keeper? And please, don’t talk about how bad straight people are these days, because while I’d agree with that, that does not change anything. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I suspect that you are very good man who is afraid to put your faith out there in the world. And no, you don’t have to be like some on here whose stridency I have a lot of problems with. When I talk about faith, I’ll be direct here. When your cousins tell you how happy they are, a strong faith would be very skeptical of that. In Hebrews 11 is says, “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” and in 2 Cor 4:18, St. Paul says, “…because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen.” Right now, to many people and I assume to you, the damages of homosexual behavior is something that is unseen. But it is there, believe me. It is a soul destroying sin. And this affects ALL people who are deep into the behavior. That is a matter of faith, whether we see it with our own eyes or not.
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Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 6:51 PM By MarkF
Oh, as far as what I’ve experienced from priests with my homosexuality, well, I never talked about it with one while I was a teenager. The Church had lost me with all the colored felt banners of Vatican II, so I never bothered to talk to a priest about it. I don’t doubt that there was a lot of bad pastoral care back then, and in some sense I think that it is good that we now talk about this behavior now, whereas before it was something unspeakable. Now I think the proper response to it would be to think of is any other grave matter, something that is human but is also very dangerous. Since coming back to the Church I’ve never been made to feel anything like discrimination from any priest, and I’ve talked to dozens about it in confession. I never got even a whiff of shock, surprise or condemnation. I’ve not experienced that from lay people in the Church either. What I’ve heard from straight people in the Church is kinship from other repentant sinners, especially from other men.
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Posted Monday, November 23, 2009 9:13 PM By JLS
MarkF, the faithful are overjoyed when a sinner repents. It testifies to our hope in salvation, a transformation promised by Christ.
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Posted Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:44 AM By Abeca Christian
The homosexuals have us busy pointing out the heterosexuals sins so they can condone their sinfulness. Both heterosexual and homosexual sins are never to be condoned. For example, we don't condone abortion, we don't justify it even as much as the pro-choice movement wants us to even bend a little. We just don't and won't or shouldn't even if one is tempted.
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Posted Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:35 AM By Mark from PA
Mark, what is the deal with felt banners? I hope that you didn't skip Mass because you didn't like making banners. Perhaps some of the students with artistic talents felt that doing that made them feel closer to Christ. Making a banner with the Eucharist and chalice, or the Holy Spirit represented by a dove or tongue of fire, or a representation of the Blessed Mother could be beneficial if one thought about Christ, the Holy Spirit or the Blessed Mother while making their banner. If that is the worst thing, then you were lucky. At least you didn't get taught religion for 3 years by a narcissistic priest who was dismissive and sarcastic to you. (I didn't know that the guy was a predator back then.) But even though I wasn't treated nicely by one priest, I never missed Mass because I went to Mass to worship God and receive Christ in the Holy Eucharist. How I felt about the priest who said Mass was besides the point although I will say that I knew some of the stuff this guy was doing I would not have gone to him for communion.
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Posted Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:55 PM By Mark from PA
I never understood why that priest had such disdain for me but now I think he may have shunned me because I was pure of heart. He could not corrupt me so he had no use for me. My heart still is heavy for those that he harmed and drove away from the Church.
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Posted Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:36 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Why do you keep obsessing and posting over and over about how this priest shunned you and didn't want you and was treating you badly. It's time to put it to rest and in the past. It happened years ago. I can understand how you can still feel bad for those children he did hurt, but come on. So he didn't want or like you. You should consider it a blessing and not an insult to you. Big deal. Move on and put it in the past. I, too, was teased non-stop & consistently all through grade school and it continued into my high school years. I went through 8th grade to a Catholic school and I was teased to no end. I went to a public high school and was teased even worse than grade school. But you know what? I survived and I've moved on. If anything it has made me a better person. I will never make fun of people or be mean to them because I know how it feels. So please, move on and forget it. I don't see why you feel the need to keep bringing it up in your posts. If it was that traumatic and is still affecting you, then I think you should go talk to your priest in private about it. Maybe he can help you deal with it.
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Posted Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:56 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I never thought all that much about this guy until a year ago. Every once in a while I would wonder what happened to him as he seemed to disappear. I thought that he probably "fell off the wagon." When I found out last year that he was a predator it was very upsetting to me. It brought it home to me because he was very close to a friend of mine and it upsets me to think about what he did with this kid. The way he treated me is no big deal. I forgive him this. I feel sorry for the man. And you are right, it is a blessing that he didn't like me. After finding this stuff out I now understand why he didn't want anything to do with me. I am certainly not upset that he didn't want me, that is a poor choice of words, as who wants to be wanted by a disturbed predator. Besides this guy, my school was very good and had excellent teachers. I didn't get teased much as I recall. I was kind to everyone and never had a bad word to say about anyone and I was respected because of this. It is still upsetting to me because I follow the blog of a man that was physically, sexually and emotionally abused by this man. This man speaks out against what was done to him and others. Sadly, he has no use for the Church, his faith is gone. So I feel bad for this man and others, not as much for myself.
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Posted Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:15 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I have discussed this with several priests, some of them knew this man. This was helpful to me. I did speak with one priest that was less than helpful. When I told him about this he said, "Well, the kid was committing mortal sins too." Now, RR, if a priest took your child out of state and repeatedly assaulted him or her, what would you say to someone who told you that your child committed mortal sins? I told the priest that the priest was the one committing mortal sins here and after I said a few more things, this particular priest told me never to speak to him again. I am glad that I know the truth though because it has been a learning experience for me. On Sunday, I had to teach a "touching safety" program to my class. This is mandatory and I am glad that it is. We had to discuss a scenario somewhat similiar to what happened to the man I was telling you about. I mentioned the real life story (not giving names), I told my students that it is very important to tell their parents if anything uncomfortable happens to them and also that if an adult tell them not to tell their parents about something this is a clue that they need to tell their parents. I also told them that their bodies are sacred. I think it is so important the we talk about this because silence is what harmed so many and allowed such horrible things to go on. I want to do my part to help keep safe our precious young people. When it comes to the abuse of of children, the Church's motto needs to be NEVER AGAIN.
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Posted Wednesday, November 25, 2009 9:05 PM By JLS
PA, you got it right with the instruction program for school kids. Congratulations!!! Now remember that teaching one correct lesson means that all your lessons have to be correct. Teach doctrine as it is written Magisterially and not as you think it ought to be written. If kids know what is right when they hear it, and a teacher tells them he disagrees with what the kids know is right ... they will lose respect for him. Remember this.
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Posted Thursday, November 26, 2009 10:45 AM By Abeca Christian
JLS great advice for PA.
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Posted Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:35 PM By Anne T.
Yes, JLS, children and teens can "smell" inconsistency or hypocrisy a mile away. That was good advice you gave PA. He needs to keep up the good work in ALL the Church's teachings.
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Posted Friday, November 27, 2009 7:46 AM By MarkF
JLS, you're wasting your breath there again. Some people live to make other people angry. Some others don't have a clue as to what they're doing or saying, but the affect is still the same. Either way, you've been sucked into something again from which there is no escape or solution. I've been sucked into this maelstrom many times myself. I know how hard it is to not be pulled in. Ever know someone who says outrageous things just to provoke a reaction from you? They will say things just to press your buttons to see you all riled up. No matter how hard it is, no matter how tempting it is, the best solution is silence, silence, silence.
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Posted Friday, November 27, 2009 10:25 AM By Mark from PA
From a letter to our parents: "According to the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People, the Diocese is obligated to offer all children in the diocese a safe environment program." To comply with the Charter requirement our parish presented the Teaching Touching Safety program last Sunday. National Catholic Services developed this program for children. This organization is also responsible for VIRTUS Protecting God's Children, the safe environment program which is offered to employees and volunteers in parishes and schools.
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Posted Friday, November 27, 2009 2:42 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, I think this is an important issue. It is only in the last ten years that I know that much about it and because of what I found out, it has touched me personally. I am telling the truth here. People should be outraged at how young people were abused not because people tell the truth. Talking to young people about this helps to protect them. Talking about it to adults raises awareness.
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Posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 7:00 AM By JLS
MarkF, you make an excellent point, which I'll explore. I think I tried it before, but it didn't last long. Practice makes perfect. I do in fact see your point, and appreciate your advice.
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Posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 11:09 AM By Mark from PA
Yes, silence, silence, silence, that was the attitude of many of the bishops to those who were abused. And look at all the good that it did. That silence drove thousands of good people from the Church. Silence is what lead to more abuse. How many kids remained silent because they thought they were the only one? How many bishops remained silent when they stuck an abusive predator in an unsuspecting parish? How many police officers remained silent and let the bishops deal with it? How many priests remained silent and didn't help young people they knew were being abused and didn't inform parents about what was happening to their sons and daughters? Thank God some people are finally getting a clue as I noted in my post of 11/27, 10:25 AM. The silence has to end.
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Posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 3:04 PM By JLS
Silence, like any other tool has to be used correctly in order to be effective. Jesus used silence. The angels in Heaven are silent for a half hour (earth time, since there is no time in Heaven). There is holy silence and there is unholy silence. God is all knowing and so silence only affects creation. Jesus was silent about his identity, and the devil did not know for sure who Jesus was, and perhaps even today does not know. Perhaps silence has no end in Hell, but in Heaven the sound of joy is forever.
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Posted Saturday, November 28, 2009 5:33 PM By Mark from PA
So, Mark F, I often got ignored by that priest. I got the silent treatment too. But I did learn a lesson by being excluded. "Don't be like him." That is the lesson that I learned as a student. And it was a good lesson too. As it turned out, I got off better than some of his "special friends." At least I didn't have to pay that price. They had to be silent for a long time but thank God I didn't have to bear that cross.
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Posted Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:33 PM By A
Most bishops did not drive people from the Church, the molesters did.
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Posted Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:10 PM By Mark from PA
A report has come out about abuse in the Archdiocese of Dublin, Ireland. People are filled with revulsion at what priests and bishops did to the innocent. Archbishop Martin is heartbroken to hear of the crimes that were perpetrated in his Archdiocese (before he was in his position of power). There is an American connection. Some of the priests who abused multiple children were sent to America. This is how they got rid of some of these guys. Instead of sending them to jail, they sent them to the states. Some even got sent with good references. In my mind, Irish bishops who sent sexual predators to the United States to get them out of their dioceses were guilty of a crime and a mortal sin as well in doing this.
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Posted Sunday, November 29, 2009 10:46 PM By JLS
Those Irish bishops who sent molester priests to the U.S. should have rather sent them to evangelize the Muslims in Mecca.
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 7:46 AM By Mark from PA
A, the bishops were responsible for protecting people from the molesters. Look at Father Geoghan in Boston. The higher ups knew what he was doing. They knew that the man was mentally disturbed. He molested over 130 children before he was removed. Again and again he was foisted on unsuspecting parishioners. In the meantime, the victims were threatened and bullied into silence and paid to keep quiet. They knew about Father Birmingham too. Even though it was known that he was a sexual predator, he was made the pastor of a parish. The bishops had more compassion for the predators than they did for the victims and their families. Many involved in the cover-ups got promoted. They were rewarded for their loyalty. Look at Father Doyle and others who stood up for the victims. They are viewed with suspicion by higher ups in the Church. Where is the justice?
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 10:39 AM By Anne T.
The sad thing is that when some of the bishops actually try to do something about the molestations, others in the Church defend the very people who are doing such things. Can't have it both ways.
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 10:40 AM By Mark from PA
That is an interesting thought, JLS. Maybe that would have been a good idea.
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 6:26 PM By JLS
People who ran into or run into evil priests need simply to go find holy priests. So there is no excuse for departing from the Church simply due to wicked clergy. If I was able to blindly crawl though a wasteland of everything other than the Catholic Church and find Her, then there is no excuse for ceasing one's search for God.
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 8:48 PM By MarkF
Anne T., you're right. The fight against homosexual child molesters in the Church is struggling with people whose loyalty is not to the Church, is not the faith and is not to the children. Right now they're fighting to protect the notion that homosexuality is not involved in this. They value that more than the safety of the kids and the reputation of the Church. The pope has clear about this, but the real question is whether the seminaries will follow through with the ban.
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Posted Monday, November 30, 2009 8:49 PM By MarkF
JLS, like Ulysses I hear the sirens calling for you. Think of it that way, and turn your eyes away. That is, since earplugs won't work on the net.
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Posted Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:01 AM By Mark from PA
Men who are sexually active with men or women do not belong in the seminary. Celibate gay men are no danger whatsoever to children. If celibate virgin men are kicked out of the seminary because some do not consider them to be "real men" then this is discrimination and prejudice.
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