|
Published: October 24, 2007
“Systems that disempower the laity”
Nun to speak in Palo Alto on how to resist “patriarchal approaches to church leadership”
Burlingame Mercy Sister Eloise Rosenblatt, who gave a keynote address for the Northern California Lay Convocation at St. Francisco’s St. Mary’s Cathedral in June, will speak on “Countering and Challenging Patriarchy in the Church” on Oct. 27 at Our Lady of the Rosary Church Hall in Palo Alto.
The event, sponsored by the Thomas Merton Center in Palo Alto, was advertised in the Oct. 16 Valley Catholic, the newspaper of the San Jose diocese.
According to the Oct. 14 Thomas Merton Center bulletin, Sister Eloise will address the question: “How do progressive Catholics, who wish to stay members of the Roman church, change the entrenched patriarchal church systems that disempower the laity in general, and women in particular?” Sister “will take a broad analytical approach and recognize how subordination works culturally and doctrinally,” said the bulletin. “She proposes long-term strategies for resisting and reforming patriarchal approaches to church leadership, by invoking the church’s own teaching.”
Sister Eloise, both a feminist theologian and a doctor of law, directs ELOROS Inc. (Education, Law, and Religious Organizations), which, says the bulletin, is “a non-profit organization that provides parish inservice education about employment issues and California’s mandatory antidiscrimination training.”
In the past, Sister Eloise has addressed other “progressive” gatherings. She offered workshops at the 1998 and 2005 Call to Action West Coast Conferences on the topics, “Keeping your church job,” church law, and clergy sexual exploitation of adult women. Call to Action is a group that promotes public dissent against Church teaching on women’s ordination, homosexuality, birth control, and other matters.
In 1997, Sister Eloise was a workshop presenter at the Catholic Women Network’s Annual Conference, where attendees learned about eastern spiritualities, “Goddess qualities,” mandalas, and “Holistic/Ecofeminist Spirituality.”
In her 2005 book, ”While the Bridegroom is with them”: Marriage, Family, Gender and Violence in the Gospel of Matthew, Marianne Blickenstaff describes Sister Eloise’s interpretation of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew’s Gospel. According to Blickenstaff, Sister Eloise sees the parable as directed at women in the “Matthean community,” exhorting women to choose to be “‘wise’ by conforming to certain behaviors prescribed by those in power (whom Rosenblatt identifies as primarily the men in the community.” The “choice between ‘wise’ and ‘foolish’” for Sister Eloise, says Blickenstaff, “serves not only to keep the women in line, but to divide the women against each other, and thus reduce any power they might have had as a group.”
Last June’s convocation at St. Mary’s cathedral, Sr. Eloise said, showed how Catholics now voice their opinion in the Church through conversation. “Some of the hotly debated issues” she had heard “involve substantive unresolved questions of Church life – women’s incorporation in ministry and decision making, the survival of the priesthood and the rule of celibacy, the Church’s teaching on human sexuality, laity having a voice in the selection of local bishops... protecting freedom of speech... promotion of a collegial and collaborative leadership style between hierarchy and laity with genuine consultation with laity” on a variety of issues.
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:19 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Sr. Eloise is emulating the first woman, Eve, who was tricked into believing that she could be like God. Eve then emasculated Adam, and our downward slide was begun. What a lot of nonsense this Mercy nun spouts. The fact that she has spoken at Call to Action and the Catholic Women's Network says it all.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:00 AM By ELIZABETH
NO WONDER THE MERCY SISTERS ARE ON THE DECLINE.....HARDLY ANY VOCATIONS.
I AM HAPPY IF THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE BECOME.
I ATTENDED THEIR SCHOOLS IN THE EARLY 1960'S AND THEY WERE SO STRICT WE COULD NOT EVEN COUGH OR SNEEZE IN THE FIRST GRADE CLASSROOM, WE WOULD GET YELLED AT.....I KID YOU NOW.
AND NOW TO THIS EXTREME!!!!!!!!!
SOUNDS LIKE THE DEVIL HAS GOTTEN AHOLD OF THEIR ORDER AND IS RUNNING WITH IT.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:11 AM By Paul
The Lord Jesus Christ warned His followers, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15).
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:26 AM By vdicarlo
Without knowing anything other than that this woman is a Mercy sister, I'm guessing their vocations are down and their order is dying. Too bad. They did a lot of good work before they lost their faith.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:39 AM By Mark Jacobson
II Timothy 4: 3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:52 AM By The other Mike
Whenever I see the word "progressive" used to describe someone, I know the first thing out of their mouth will be a demand for something of a sexual nature, followed a demand to eliminate a tradition of the Church.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:07 AM By Maria C
Laurette you are right. If she can only embrace Virgen Mary as a role model. Our Lord's mother is a perfect role model for us women here on earth.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:27 AM By Maria C
I wanted to share a neat story with you all. I live near the fires and the fires are what you can say in my back yard (a matter of speech), off all the chaos going on here, we had two wonderful priest call and check on us. i hope that who ever writes articles can write about that. Father Nabil and Father John H called and checked on us and offered to help. What wonderful priests who love our Lord and are here to serve in humility and devotion. Through these wonderful priests I see Jesus in them. People if we allow hatred and stereo typing in our lifes, then that hatred is just as bad as the fires that are burning and harming the faithful.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:42 AM By Maria C
Mark Jacobson I love the bible verse you quoted. God bless you.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:03 PM By Robert Lockwood
If it looks like a Duck, sounds like a Duck, acts like a Duck, it must be a Duck. This "Sister" is not a Sister at all but more like a Duck as she does not look like a sister, talk like a sister, or act like one.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:00 PM By Dave N.
The patriarchy could speak with greater moral authority if they weren't so outrageously corrupt and unaccountable--except to God, I suppose. Because of this corruption, people like Sr. Eloise arise.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:26 PM By Anna
OH, Knock It Off!!! You clergy worshipping cathaholics are intimidated by this woman because she has a BRAIN!!!!!
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 4:20 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
We will eventually probably see her featured as a "Lost Angles Religious Education Congress" speaker!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www. crcoa.com
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:04 PM By Dave
No, Anna, we're not intimidated by "this woman." We recognize her errors for what they are, which is what you ought to do as well. However, you apparently agree with the heterodox ideas she promotes. That's not Catholic in the least. Also, it's not lacking a brain to accept ALL of the Church's teachings. Catholics accept all of the Church's teachings because they DO have brains, and their brains tell them it makes good sense to accept all the Church's teachings! It's not worshipping the clergy to accept Church teachings, no matter how difficult they may be to assent to. It's worshipping God, from who these teachings come. On the other hand, not accepting them is to worship your own ego. I will pray for you, Anna. I urge you to repent!
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:08 PM By John L. Sillasen
Duck season is open in California. And it looks like this one is being folded quickly. Yes, Anna, of course she has a brain, but the bad news is that it's scrambled.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:12 PM By Angela
'I will be with you all days, even unto the end of the world.' Sr. Eloise can whistle in the wind. What a shame she can't use her brain or her talents to better advantage.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:02 PM By Stuart
Sounds like Sr. Eloise is about as Catholic as Nancy Pelosi...uh....yeah. Well, anyway, it's important to remember that not all nuns get to heaven...
|
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:16 PM By John L. Sillasen
"Progressive" Catholics! Whew!!! In my first year of Catholicism ('79), in an office complex I worked in staffed with mostly conservative Catholics (a conservative Catholic publisher), I happily announced that I was a progressive Catholic. The staff took note, kindly let me know that it was something I might research a bit. A day or so later, a young woman temp who was not Catholic at all, came up to me in an energetic manner which momentarily trapped me, and all but insisted we get something going after work. I did not at the time understand her unusual eagerness to form such a deep relationship. But eventually looked up the word, "progressive" and discovered that it meant those who had stepped somewhat beyond the sheepfold ... this definitely was not my playpen, and so I had to re-announce that it was not "progressive" but "developing", "growing" in Catholic faith. These people take words and spin them to match their lusts.
|
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:42 AM By JPeterman
So the real question is why is she being allowed to speak at a church? Even though this is San Fran..shouldn't they still be faithful to the Magisterium and not allow these wolves in to the building?
|
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:28 AM By John L. Sillasen
Further thought: The laity seems to be "disempowered", but it is by such dissent as this woman pushes that furthers disempowerment. The laity is always able to rise to the occasion demanded by God ... there is no man nor power which can prevent this. It is up to the laity, and the only way it works is through holiness. This "indulgence-ism" has no authority to do anything; it is destructive in its means and in its ends.
|
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:31 PM By Mike Brennan
God bless Sr. Eloise for her courage, vision and hope. When good Catholic people resort to the kind of name-calling and truly low levels of moral maturity reflected in many of these comments, one sees just how totally a certain segment of the laity are disempowered. The tragedy is that they are choosing this road because it appears to be safe and righteous and above all, obedient, and because they cling to their fears and their never-questioned assumptions about a faith that is radical and challenging to the core. Pay, pray and obey is their mantra, and when someone challenges them to see another viewpoint, many of them react with hate and vile remarks. What kind of Catholicism is this? It is a heartbreaking and broken Catholicism. "Pray for your own discovery," said Thomas Merton. Let's return to Scripture and discover what Jesus says about loving our brothers and sisters, and judging others, and living a life of truth and compassion. These knee jerk reactions are much more revealing than their authors intend.
|
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:53 PM By John L. Sillasen
Nice caricature, Mike. So, as you see it, if the faithful are challenged to another viewpoint, then they are immature if they question or criticize it.
|
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:40 PM By Maria C
Mike Brennan you just blessed this sister. Hopefully God will also bless you with His graces and see to it that this sister has a true conversion and honor and obey the teachings of Jesus and His church. Perhaps we can see double blessings, for your conversion as well. God bless you.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 8:06 AM By Pablo
It is important here to outline the stages of Sin as demonstrated in Christ’s ministry:
Jairus’s daughter, the son of the widow of Nain, and Lazarus. Jairus’s daughter was only ’sleeping’ Christ said. That is us in the early stages of sin. Christ raised her to show his authority over sin. The son of the widow of Nain, he was being carried to the grave by his friends; he was dead in his sins that his friends had helped carry him to as they carried him also to his grave. A death of eternal damnation. Christ raised him, and ordered him to return to his Mother. Holy Mother the Church, Holy Mother Mary. He wisely arose and returned to his Mother after Christ forgave his sins that had killed him, body and soul, and allowed him to live again to seek after the Kingdom of Heaven. He turned his back on his ‘friends’.
Lazarus was dead in mortal sin. This is why Christ wept at the tomb of Lazarus; not because he died, but because men choose sin instead of God. Before He raised Lazarus from his deep death in mortal sin, to emphasize His point He sent for the Sinner to be brought forth to witness further his authority over sin. Mary Magdalene was told “Magister Adest et Vocat Te”
The Master is here, and He calls you. She was the first ever, to be called by name, to the Blessed Sacrament.
Christ has established His Church. He has no need for foolish women or pompous fools to try to improve it. The Magisterium of the Church, Her teachings, and the Authority of the Vicar of Christ are tools we need to work towards our salvation. Christ has done the hard part. Working towards that, we can use the above catechism as a measure. Are we sinning? What stage of sin are we in? Am I opening my mouth instead of my heart to Christ? Without Charity, we cannot enter Heaven; with sin, we cannot enter.
Pray for that foolish Nun and all the smug catholic watchers who are quick to criticize Christ and His followers.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 9:50 AM By John L. Sillasen
Pablo, that is really an excellent way in which you show both the real and the symbolical level of death in the same event. I will be incorporating this into my own style of explication.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 10:46 AM By Dominic
Sister Eloise is, of course, entitled to her views, but is she entitled to upset so many practising Catholic people by broadcasting them around the world?
Would she not consider some worthwhile writing or speaking in favor of what is good in the Church? -' No way'
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 12:43 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Pablo,
Where did you get the idea that Jairus’s daughter, the son of the widow of Nain, and Lazarus were suffering the death of sin?
It certainly isn't stated so in the Bible!
Lazarus was a friend of Jesus, and the brother of Mary and Martha!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 2:07 PM By John L. Sillasen
I would guess that the sin they suffered was not their own but rather the effects of the sin of others and of the Fall. Jesus said something to this effect regarding one or some of those he miraculously healed ... to the effect that their blind eyes or crippled limbs were not due to their own sins.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 9:36 PM By cubeland mystic
Liberals do not understand context. They superimpose a political context onto a spiritual one. In that context it seems unfair that men are in power and women are not. The problem is, it has nothing to do with the life of the spirit. There is a spiritual role for a male and one for a female. It honors each gender. It has nothing to do with gender politics, power sharing, and equity. It has everything to do with sacred mystery.
You have to ask why do they want "power"? Their language is always political. It transcends nothing. I could care less if the women run my parish, or teach faithful doctrine in our universities. I see them as equal partners in that arena. But why is it fair, that biologically they can only carry that eternal being in their bodies, and form this bond with that being. Only a woman can relate to this holy experience. But yet only a consecrated male, not all males, but only a priest can confect the Eucharist. Why is it so abhorrent to them that we men, and only a very few of us, have this one thing that we do?
In my opinion she is materialist, and simply cannot understand the mystery of the holy mass and the sacredness of humanity. I think she is quite brilliant, just terribly misguided.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 10:06 PM By Frank
Has anyone read any of Sr. Eloise's books? If I wanted to get a feeling for her writing style and an overview of her ideas, which of her several books would be best to read first? Also, Amazon gives her first name sometimes as Eloise, other times as Marie-Eloise. Which is correct? Thanks!
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 10:12 PM By John L. Sillasen
I was empowered by a woman to find Christ. She did not direct me to herself, but to Christ. What greater humility could there be, other than in Christ Himself.
|
Posted Friday, October 26, 2007 11:16 PM By cubeland mystic
Liberals do not understand context. They superimpose a political context onto a spiritual one. In that context it seems unfair that men are in power and women are not. The problem is, it has nothing to do with the life of the spirit. There is a spiritual role for a male and one for a female. It honors each gender. It has nothing to do with gender politics, power sharing, and equity. It has everything to do with sacred mystery.
You have to ask why do they want "power"? Their language is always political. It transcends nothing. I could care less if the women run my parish, or teach faithful doctrine in our universities. I see them as equal partners in that arena. But why is it fair, that biologically they can only carry that eternal being in their bodies, and form this bond with that being. Only a woman can relate to this holy experience. But yet only a consecrated male, not all males, but only a priest can confect the Eucharist. Why is it so abhorrent to them that we men, and only a very few of us, have this one thing that we do?
In my opinion she is materialist, and simply cannot understand the mystery of the holy mass and the sacredness of humanity. I think she is quite brilliant, just terribly misguided.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:23 AM By Mike Brennan
The peculiar linkage of the word progressive with lust and sexuality in several entries reveals both hidden fears and a lack of clear thinking, as the word itself simply means “making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods.” Demonizing anyone who serves the Church by exposing its problems and advocating solutions is the tragedy I am referencing. The denial that anything is wrong, despite copious evidence to the contrary, led to the suppression of the sex abuse crisis until it exploded in scandal. Jesus said “Nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, nor secret that will not be known. What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the light; what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops.” It is strange that Paul, referencing Matt. 7:15, infers that Sr. Eloise is a false prophet, given the chaos and catastrophic costs incurred by dozens of bishops more concerned about closing ranks and hiding the pedophiles than protecting victimized children and healing the wounded. And it is the laity, disempowered as Sr. Eloise correctly discerns, who stood by and allowed it to happen.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:26 AM By Mike Brennan
One guy disingenuously says that the word “progressive” is always followed by “a demand for something of a sexual nature followed a demand to eliminate a tradition of the Church.” The irony of this caricature is that the church hierarchy has been consumed with sexual issues, internal and external, seemingly more concerned with birth control, homosexuality, celibacy and keeping women at bay than, for example, the immorality of nuclear warfare and the possibility of catastrophe precipitated by thousands of “good Christians” assisting in the manufacture, distribution and readiness to launch weapons of mass destruction. The devil must be delighted by this capacity for sexual preoccupation to the point of distraction while the world teeters toward destruction. And if progressive Catholics want to see certain issues addressed that relate to gender equality or human sexuality, our more conservative brothers and sisters are no less galvanized by the subject. Suggesting that the Tradition of the Church is somehow at risk is illogical, but there are plenty of “traditions” with a small “t” that some Catholics think are sacrosanct when they are merely custom. There is a big difference. St. Francis said, “Sanctify yourself and you sanctify society.” A good place for us to start is by fostering compassion and understanding in our hearts and in our conversation.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:45 PM By John L. Sillasen
Why is it that two things are juxtuposed polemically today, namely war and adultry? I know that many people working in the war industry aka defense industry or military are working to prevent war, or at least minimize it. Can this be said of those working in the sex industry or advocating for "progressive" sex laws and/or political advantage for adulterers, that they are trying to minimize sodomy and other manifestations of adultry? Does anyone understand this predicament?
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:30 PM By Mike Brennan
My interest in the offensive comments above is not to caricature faithful and well-meaning Catholics. Clearly, it is the so-called “progressive Catholics” who are caricatured. John Sillasen dismisses my comment because he reads what he wants to read. I wrote, “When someone challenges them to see another viewpoint, many of them react with hate and vile remarks.” This is not the same as questioning and criticizing. Argument and discussion is necessary, not name calling. This lack of manners is the moral immaturity I am referencing. As for questioning and constructively criticizing Church leadership across the board, and exploring the origins and the consequences of certain policies that are not scripturally mandated but rather were dictated by our cultural conditioning, I believe all Catholics of conscience must respond. Reform of the Catholic Church as an institution is nothing new: our greatest saints have advocated constant renewal and conversion. This is the essence of fidelity! Our best popes and bishops have seen the need to break with the prevailing culture on issues such as slavery, racism, and economic exploitation, though too often the “official” stand came long after prophetic and saintly voices in the Church called for change. When from its beginning Catholicism raised women and men equally to sainthood, when it celebrated the Blessed Mother as the preeminent disciple, present with the apostles at the birthday of the Church, it bucked cultural ideas about the inferiority of women, to take one example. Yet, in our society, it is less than 100 years since a woman’s right to vote was recognized, so it is little surprise that we struggle with whether she has the equal capacity to minister and lead the church as men.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:32 PM By Frank
Last Friday, I posted the question: "Has anyone read any of
Sr. Eloise's books?" The lack of answers seems to indicate that not
one of you has actually read ANYTHING Sr. Eloise ever wrote.
Admittedly all I've read of her work is few downloads dredged up by
searching with google and amazon. I did, however, attend the event
referenced here and I talked with her in person. Here's what I found
out: ALL of you who posted disparaging opinions of her are wrong about
who she is and what she has to say.
--*--
This isn't to say that every THING she says is absolutely true; she
herself didn't claim that. If you had read a little bit of what she
writes, you could have actually expressed your opinion on her IDEAS.
But since you apparently didn't, you couldn't, so I'm left to think
her actual IDEAS are irrefutable, at least by those who post to this
forum.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 7:38 PM By Mike Brennan
I have no idea why Mr. Sillasen brings up adultery and sodomy. It would appear that he hopes to connect the earlier discussion of the word “progressive” to promiscuity and “the sex industry.” This is an unfortunate but transparent ploy. My hope and prayer is that the Holy Spirit will help us live more authentic lives in harmony with the Gospel, with Jesus who remains in our midst as a community at the celebration of the Eucharist, Jesus who enjoins us to love our enemies and forgive infinitely. By paying taxes to be used by the Pentagon to spread death and destruction, and failing to raise our voices against war and the weapons of mass destruction our country continues creating, we participate in the culture of death that Pope John Paul II described. It is a dilemma for Christians in the U.S. and worldwide, and it is deeply woven into our politics. If Christians who build weapons for the sole purpose of killing other human beings chose in good conscience to find different work, the “defense industry” would collapse. If every Christian voted for men and women who would work for peace through diplomacy instead of those who continue feeding the military industrial complex, the world would be transformed. I think most people of good will can understand this idea. The only predicament, Mr. Sillasen, is fuzzy thinking and the very real danger of being more American than Catholic. I love our country, but Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. The Holy Father enjoined George Bush not to launch a war on Iraq. If every bishop and Catholic in America truly embraced papal leadership on the issue of war, we wouldn’t be in this mess. Conservatives can be just as selective about which papal teachings they accept.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:34 PM By WB
"Mass destruction" is a fairly good term to describe what happens in many parish liturgies these days. I'd say "faith destruction" as well.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:08 PM By John L. Sillasen
Frank, if you like Sr Eloise, fine by me. But I read enough to realize that it would be only more boring to read more. I mean, of all the great books to read, you prefer her. Well, so be it.
|
Posted Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:16 PM By John L. Sillasen
Mike Brennan, thanks for the ad hominum description. I know that when someone pastes me in the chops, that I've hit a nerve. You accuse me of a ploy; what is that ploy? Also, my "fuzzy logic" seems to have conveyed my point, that politically it is adultry vs war. You even addressed this point. But you addressed the ideas, and not the practical reality. I am trying to incorporate the whole schtueck, not simply some nice idealism. OK, you tout women in leadership ... coincident with its rise has been abortion, rampant adultry, the gay agenda, global war, sexual abuse scandal in the Church, etc. Now, I've just pointed out the coincidence; I'll lay odds that you will claim that I blame women for all this. BTW, where did you develop your eloquent bureaucratic-ese? It's rhetoric, Mike, and that's why you do not see that some on the thread here are trying to rise above rhetoric and politics and get to some truth on some issues ... to resolve problems, instead of perpetuating their polarization as the politicians love to do.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 3:24 AM By cubeland mystic
"it is less than 100 years since a woman’s right to vote was recognized, so it is little surprise that we struggle with whether she has the equal capacity to minister and lead the church as men."
Mike Brennen said that above. Then he went on to say more about politics. I said in my earlier post, "Liberals do not understand context. They superimpose a political context onto a spiritual one."
Mike, it is difficult to take you seriously when your interlace your Catholic language with political language. Or are you interlacing your political language with Catholic language?
The context isn't clear. So in an article about church reform, we hear about women's rights, W, the global war, the defense industry, rather than Christ. If you are going to mix politics and faith, please include ending abortion.
We all need to move past politics. When we superimpose our politics onto our faith, we lose Christ's love. The meaning of the faith is lost to the political struggle. So Mike please consider reading what I said above. Then read your words below, and compare them to what I said. Then consider how someone who is trying to defend orthodoxy might feel threatened by your rhetoric. I ask in sincerity and in the spirit of Christ.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 11:47 AM By Frank
The quote about "less than 100 years" is, as far as I remember, verbatim among points Sr. Eloise made on Saturday night. Mike's comments are consistent with her presentation.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 11:49 AM By Frank
Sr. Eloise would probably agree with cubeland mystic's call for clarity of context. She drew a distinction between moral authority, political authority and tyranny (AKA patriarchy). This is not seeking to "superimpose our politics and faith" but to differentiate them. A real-life example she gave was the case of a secretary who was arbitrarily fired from her parish job in violation of her contract. This had nothing to do with the pastor's moral authority, yet the faithful secretary was afraid to speak up on her own behalf. After she distinguised her own faith from intimidation, she had courage to appeal to the bishop and secure her separation pay. She also got a bonus and an apology. The Church herself empowered this woman to get a just outcome, but she had to distinguish moral authority from intimidation.
--*--
Someone defending othodoxy may indeed feel threatened by the idea of differentiating the Church's moral and temporal authority. If orthodoxy is imposed, we don't need to answer for choosing it or not. Taking full responsibility for our own future as Sr. Eloise ejoins us to do can lead us to or away from orthodoxy. Making this choice and all the other choices a fully lived life entails is a burden none of us can carry without God's help. I submit the threatened feeling has ultimately to do with reliance on imposition of temporal power rather than Faith.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 4:18 PM By Mike Brennan
Frank speaks with clarity and intelligence. He is probably the only person in this long list of commentators who actually went to hear Sr. Eloise speak. I live in Chicago. I was directed to this link because of my interest in Thomas Merton, and the fact that the talk was sponsored by the Thomas Merton Center in Palo Alto. Then I read the rude remarks about the Sisters of Mercy. I was taught by the Sisters of Mercy at St. Monica School. They were extraordinary Sisters. In 1965, when I was eight, Sr. James Mary taught us Dylan’s Blowin’ in the Wind, made popular by Peter, Paul and Mary. When I was ten, and racial tensions ran high in Chicago and all across the country, Sr. Emilita patiently explained that negros, who did not live around us, were good people who deserved all the same rights and opportunities as white people. This was new information for many of us. In 1968, Sr. Jeanette helped us understand the murders of Martin Luther King, Jr., and Bobby Kennedy. And while we sent letters and all our prayers to the soldiers fighting in Viet Nam, including my Uncle Mike, we understood that war was bad and prayed for its end. And yes, we learned the stories of the Bible, the prayers of the Church, we attended Mass and recited the Rosary, we were prepared for the Sacraments and we had a thorough religious education. Social justice, though, is also an important part of Catholicism, and there are plenty of papal encyclicals and apostolic works of mercy one can cite. I believe that the work Sr. Eloise and the Sisters of Mercy continue to do in the areas of justice in the church and in society is right from the heart of Jesus and the Beatitudes. People can disagree with her position without taking cheap shots. And I think it’s important to call people on their cheap shots, especially those who cloak themselves in piety.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 6:29 PM By WB
I notice that all of your references to the Sisters are from 1965 -- over 40 years ago. The fact is, these liberalized religious orders are dying out. I don't blame the Sisters for falling into heterodoxy and dissent. They had no support or guidance from anyone -- the bishops abandoned them to false theologians and the liberal reformers undercut the notion of consecrated life itself -- thus rendering the Sisters confused and struggling to find a meaning for their lives. Those who stayed embraced the relativist-secular ideas and tried to become good social workers. The path of contemplation and adoration -- the heart of religious life, was ruined and replaced with activism which has been mostly empty and fruitless. The sisters no longer recite the rosary. Sadly, they were duped by the Kennedy's also -- and that was very sad to see. In any case, you're speaking from nostalgia about an era that is long gone.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 7:30 PM By John L. Sillasen
Mike Brennan, even cheap shots come from ernest souls. In that you attack them instead of trying to communicate fairly with them only cheapens your own shots. It is called arrogance. I rec'd the same instruction you mentioned about the social realities in the sixties, only from the secular world. So, what makes it so special that you rec'd the same information from the Church? It only proves that the social realm is not the special domain of the Church, and that the non-Church world is capable of dealing with it. The Church has special graces to offer, not available elsewhere ... so, now you may call me, and anyone else whom you do not agree with, a cheap shot. I wonder if you have the ability or will to actually answer the rebuttals with anything substantive. Oh yeah, in 1965 I was an adult, and capable of evaluating the information being pumped into society at the time by many sources, some good and some bad. I was caught up in the agony of the Civil Rights movements, the war, the "free sex" movement, and the onset of legal abortion. There is more to it than the shallow politics you lay out. That era calls for more than a grade school introduction to it.
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 7:51 PM By Mike Brennan
WB, I was discussing my experience with the Sisters of Mercy, who taught at my grammar school, but I have had many positive experiences with Sisters of many different religious orders right up the the present. I am sorry that you have so little hope for the future of religious life. I defer to Thomas Merton, who wrote to Jim Forest, "Do not depend on the hope of results. When you are doing the sort of work you have taken on, essentially an apostolic work, you may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea you start more and more to concentrate not on the results, but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself...So the next step in the process is for you to see that your own thinking about what you are doing is crucially important. You are probably striving to build yourself an identity in your work and your witness. You are using it so to speak to protect yourself against nothingness, annihilation. That is not the right use of your work. All the good that you will do will come not from you but from the fact that you have allowed yourself, in the obedience of faith, to be used by God's love. Think of this more, and gradually you will be freed from the need to prove yourself, and you can be more open to the power that will work through you without your knowing it."
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 9:48 PM By John L. Sillasen
Mike Brennan, why Merton with all his self centered theology? Why not the classics with their God centered theology? Why not Acquinas? Why not St John of the Cross? Why not St Teresa of Avila? Why not St Theresa the Little Flower? Why not "The Imitation of Christ"? Why not the "Little Flowers of St Francis"? Why not the life of St Padre Pio? What about St Augustine's "Confessions" and "City of God"? Why not one of the Church's most illuminative philosophers, the late Pope John Paul II (Wojtyla)? What about the voluminous writings on the Fatima seers? Merton will not take you very far or very deeply into Catholicism. These others will chauffer you all the way, until you cry "uncle".
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 11:08 PM By cubeland mystic
Frank, I think all of us would agree that a wronged staffer has recourse in cases of abuse and injustice. If that is all Sister is after, then she has achieved much in her lifetime. My orthodox parish is full of women who lead in all kinds of areas from lay apostolates to the running of the church and school. I just listened to a female professor of theology discuss St. Thomas on EWTN. Not to mention the thousands and thousands of women who undertook the vocation of motherhood and lead the domestic church. Oh, hey, and then there is Mother Angelica. She started one of the largest media empires in the world.
But I don't think that is what sister had in mind. Most of the materialists in the church want to "reform" the priesthood and our theology. Having know a few materialists I believe they want to kill it. If they hate it that much to move into heresy, why not just bail an start your own church?
|
Posted Monday, October 29, 2007 11:31 PM By cubeland mystic
Mike Brennan
I was going to say that you sound like a liberal boomer from the sixties. But I thought it might offend. Thanks for outting yourself.
I think we fail to comprehend all the different dimensions of the faith. Some of us are called to social justice, some to pro-life, some to contemplative prayer, some to theology. The danger comes when you confuse your area of interest as the sole mission of our sacred immutable Roman faith.
Like you I have a great interest in Merton. If it is God's will I hope some day to experience a deeper lay monasticism. A simple life. Your language is highly political, which shifts the context into materialism, not really faith. Your words are distant and your experiences are part of history. Our generations have little in common now. We younger Catholics look to the holy alter as a place of sacred mystery. Your generation looks at it as a place of political change. Perhaps it is time for your generation to experience the mystery, and leave politics alone. Try to experience the Holy Spirit's work that is revitalizing our parishes. This sixties rhetoric is just so tired and quite frankly boring. Look to Merton as your guide, and follow his lead and experience the sacred in silence and wonder. God bless
|
Posted Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:59 AM By John L. Sillasen
Growing up in secular govt schools, having almost no knowledge of Catholicism, and it being commonly understood that one had a duty to question the educational "pitches", well this all seems to be radically different from Catholic schools. That is why it is very easy for me, like water off the back of a duck, to question anything that is purported to come from the mouth of God ... not all that is claimed so actually does ... charlatans abound. Jesus informs us to discern the spirits ... I think in this case the secular schools got a big jump on the parochial schools a few generations back.
|
Posted Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:41 PM By Mike Brennan
Following this thread has been a rollercoaster experience. On the one hand, it can be hard to express the depth of what one feels in 1500 characters or less, yet there are many fine efforts. I appreciate Cubeland Mystic's blessing, and the earlier blessing of Maria C. I reflected on my initial comment and decided that the "pay, pray and obey" expression and generalizations about fearfulness and righteousness were unnecessary and, as John Sillasen said, caricatures. For that I apologize. I am aware that there is, very often, a depth of commitment and faithfulness among Catholics with whom I may disagree on certain matters. At root, I believe we have much more in common than that about which we disagree. John offers a litany of Catholic classics, all of which I am just as familiar with as Merton’s writings. I disagree that Merton’s writings are any more self-centered than any of the authors John mentions, and it’s unfortunate that he doesn’t think Merton will take one very deeply into Catholicism. But ultimately I believe in Jesus Christ and all those writers, Merton included, are only as good as they lead one to union with God. They point the way, they are not the end. And to the extent that we also lead each other to Jesus with compassion and love, we honor them, and the whole communion of saints. All of us would do well to assume less about each other based on a few words. I met John Paul II and was the lector at a Mass celebrated in his private chapel. It was a humbling and life changing experience. My respect for him was enormous, even if I disagreed with some of his positions. I saw him as a holy man called to a singularly unique office, but I will not deify him. He availed himself of the Sacrament of Reconciliation too. When he handed me a rosary after Mass, he called me his “lay collaborator.” I cherish those words. I take them seriously.
|
Posted Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:34 PM By John L. Sillasen
Mike Brennan, that's a welcome post. Now I see that I have nothing to dispute with you. I do have some conclusions which I do not hold "ex cathedra" regarding the late Thomas Merton. The rollercoaster ride is kind of normal for me; I just ride with the swells. Now, here is my brief conclusion about Thomas Merton: He spent his life plunging into Catholic spirituality. I see it that he began to leave the good path in his later years. What influenced him to do so, I will reflect on later, beyond this post. Essentially my view is this, that he got too curious with the far eastern spiritual realm. He did not recognize the danger, and jettisoned his Heavenly protection, or at least just drifted away from it. Being a kind of spiritual role model for Catholic monasticism, it may just be that the Lord took him out before he could do any serious harm. This idea presupposes that God is not an absent clockmaker, but is intrinsically present in human affairs, just as the Church teaches. Read the collection of his last writings. What does Merton offer that great saints, or multitudes of lesser but devout Catholics, do not offer? Meditation can dwell on either or both of two things: God or creation. We "see" Heaven by acting according to God's Will ... and this Will is spelled out for us. To meditate on nature, all you have to do is go and look at it. In both cases you have to clear yourself from distractions. St John of the Cross pretty much covers how to accomplish this. Pray to Merton; then pray to St Pio: Note the effect in each case. Decide then which one is the better help in reaching Heaven.
|
Posted Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:00 PM By Mary Anne
This still is America, right? Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech. My, we are a scholarly bunch, aren't we? Pontificating on our knowledge of scripture and showing off how much we know,well, nibble on this. If you are indeed the pious people that you claim to be, you should know, that there is only One who judges us in the end. I suppose this is too simplistic for such learned theologians.
|
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:53 AM By Ukraine, London
http://musicsomalys.blogspot.com http://phenterminesiteeffectsavf.blogspot.com http://continuevaliumafterembryotopp.blogspot.com http://prescriptionweightlossadipewsf.blogspot.com http://xanaxprecriptionsupz.blogspot.com http://cialisforsaleindublinrcn.blogspot.com http://genericcialisinblisterpacknrs.blogspot.com http://sarafemtakenwithmeridiaxbt.blogspot.com http://somadataproductsmkj.blogspot.com http://affectsofvicodinuyi.blogspot.com http://howtoorderphenterminedfp.blogspot.com http://carisoprodolocdojt.blogspot.com http://phenterminesomaclf.blogspot.com http://whatdoestramadolhcldocat.blogspot.com
http://tramadolcollectondeliverypko.blogspot.com
|
© California Catholic Daily 2007. All Rights Reserved.
|