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Published: September 5, 2008
Word of warning
Diocesan newspaper editor cautions faithful over “Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good”
News from the Trenches
(Editor’s Note: We reprint the item below at the request of Jack Smith, editor of The Catholic Key, official newspaper of the Diocese of Kansas City. In his blog entry below, Mr. Smith points out that a group calling itself “Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good” is really a front organization sponsored by the Democratic National Committee. “This group has been treated as legitimate by CNS and other Catholic news sources,” noted Mr. Smith in an email to California Catholic Daily.)
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2008
Cardinal George Slams 'Common Good' Fraud
Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good is an organization whose purpose is convincing Catholics to vote for pro-choice Democrats. The sleight of hand they employ in this task is to claim that such candidates align so well across the board with Catholic teaching on the common good, that their support for legalized abortion can be fairly overlooked. In fact, the group does not even call for the repeal of the Roe regime and is constantly critical of those who do, preferring to praise those pro-choice politicians who claim to reduce abortions by adjustments in social policy.
Cardinal George attacks that notion today in a letter posted to the Archdiocese of Chicago website (excerpt):
"The unborn child, who is alive and is a member of the human family, cannot defend himself or herself. Good law defends the defenseless. Our present laws permit unborn children to be privately killed. Laws that place unborn children outside the protection of law destroy both the children killed and the common good, which is the controlling principle of Catholic social teaching. One cannot favor the legal status quo on abortion and also be working for the common good."
Cardinal George does not call out Catholics in Alliance by name, but he has previously banned their deceptive material from parishes in his diocese.
The tactics employed by Catholics in Alliance are not surprising given their birth from within the Democratic Party and strong ties to pro-choice Catholic politicians.
Executive Director and Co-founder of Catholics in Alliance, Alexia Kelley, served as religious outreach coordinator for John Kerry's 2004 presidential campaign.
James Salt, who helped start Catholics in Alliance and is now Director of Organizing for a nearly identical group called Catholics United, had previously worked on the campaign of the pro-choice Catholic Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius.
While the group was forming, David Wilhem, the non-Catholic former chair of the Democratic National Committee, was helping to form the group's board of directors.
Former Boston Mayor and President Clinton's Ambassador to the Vatican Ray Flynn told The Catholic Key that Wilhelm attempted to recruit him for the board. Flynn though is a truly pro-life Democrat and when the organization made clear to him that they would not support efforts to legally curtail abortion, he declined.
The Chair of the Board of Directors for Catholics in Alliance is Ambassador Elizabeth Frawley Bagley. She served in a number of capacities in the Clinton State Department and is the wife of former Democratic National Committee finance chair, Smith Bagley. Ambassador Bagley has herself given hundreds of thousands of dollars to the DNC, as well as to numerous stridently pro-choice Democratic candidates including, Barack Obama, Al Franken, Barbara Boxer, Claire McCaskill, Charles Schumer and The Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund.
There is a pressing need and a noble task involved in faithful Catholics who are Democrats working to change their party's attachment to abortion on demand. Unfortunately, Catholics in Alliance and Catholics United are simply trying to spin their fellow Catholics into thinking the Democrats' position on abortion is no big deal.
Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 12:13 AM By Quanta Cura
"One cannot favor the legal status quo on abortion and also be working for the common good."
These are great words from Cardinal George. What will the follow up be. Do these words apply only to elected officials or to all Catholics? Here in California we have Dolores Huerta and her Dolores Huerta Foundation and their minions parading around as practicing Catholics but they are in favor of abortion.The Cardinal says you can't support abortion and support the common good at the same time. I hope Cardinal george follows through on his words with actions. As usual the California Bishops, like Bp. Steinbock in Fresno are silent. Steinbock has said in the past he does not want to politicize the Eucharist. I guess for Bishops like Steinbock, party will always come before the faith.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 5:22 AM By Fr. M.P.
We see how the devil and his minions try to spin their lies as angels of light.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 5:31 AM By Ron
There is no such thing as a Catholic Pro-Life Democrat. If you are a Democrat you are thus tied to your parties platform, which is pro murder of the unborn. Therefore you are not Pro-Life and you are certainly not a true Catholic.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 5:35 AM By St. Christopher
This is something other than an attempted "spin" on pro-life Catholics, but represents a direct and cynical assault on a core moral teaching of the Church. As such, these Democratically-inspired and controlled entities must be called out by name, expressly linked to Barak Obama and Joe Biden, and served up to the American voter as further examples of the "power at all costs" mentality and approach of the Democratic party. The arrogance of the Democratic party and its outright hatred of the Catholic Church should give voters further reason to retreat from that evil and vote Republican in November.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 9:26 AM By The original Frank
Editor: I am a Catholic who strongly supports Obama's candidacy. Much as I would like to see all abortions and other human misery end, I believe his approach of inspiration and education will, with God's grace, bring more immediate results than a battle for legal prohibition. The USA has one of the highest abortion rates of the "western democracies" and this has fundamentally to do with the state of our nation's soul, not with its laws. Too many Christians have let insistence on perfection-or-nothing (zero abortions by law) blind us to the opportunities God offers us to build a more just society. The comment that "the Democrats' position on abortion is no big deal" is an unfair insult to us who are committed to alleviating the misery which pushes an individual to the brink of an "abortion choice." Healthy individuals in a healthy society do not want to kill their children.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 10:14 AM By Editor
The group you write about is NOT to be confused with an excellent group called : "Catholics for the Common Good," run by Bill May. The Catholic Business Journal just ran an article on Bill May and Catholics for the Common Good on its front page -- the article is posted at: http://www.catholicbusinessjournal.biz
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 10:40 AM By Sawyer
Satan has resorted to using phony Christian front-groups such as this one and the Matthew 25 Network to make evil appear to be the path of discipleship. How many will be duped by the dissembling use of scripture and doctrine? Far too many, I fear.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 10:55 AM By John M
I believe that Jesus said "Even the elect could be lead astray" Isn"t it a coincidence that ashtray and astray look so much alike? Where would you prefer to spend eternity? Cling to His Church. Cling to Him. Seek the Truth.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 11:41 AM By Ron
Frank, you poor misguided soul. Let me get this straiught, you support obama because his approach of "inspiration "and "education" will bring more immediate results............ It will bring immediate results alright, instead of being a 7-2 Supreme Court majority to over-turn Roe V Wade , it will be the other way around for another 20 or 30 years. Also, just my guess but I don't think God grants too many graces to those who murder his children. God Bless
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 12:17 PM By Dan
"Healthy individuals in a healthy society do not want to kill their children. " Original Frank, I guess you do not believe in the doctrine of Original Sin.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 1:20 PM By The original Frank
Ron: Openness to inspiration, education and other manifestations of God's grace is fundamental to being Christian. I don't see the Republican platform of military aggression or tax cuts for corporations and wealthy individuals moving us forward at all. Immediate results appear when the poor are fed, the hopeless are comforted and people draw strength from Faith --- how else will we as a society (not just Catholics) turn from the materialist, abortion-as-solution culture? Grace is not a reward for good behavior, but God's self-gift, freely given to all.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 1:31 PM By The original Frank
Dan: Why do you say I "do not believe in the doctrine of Original Sin"? Where's your evidence to support a correlation between unbaptized parents and infanticide or abortions? AFAIK, USA Catholics have about the same abortion rate as non-Catholics. There is, however, plenty of evidence linking abortion to poverty and sexual ignorance.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 2:27 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
PRO-LIFE ON THE CHEAP!
"Flynn though is a truly pro-life Democrat"! What does it take for such a person to lose that aura of respectablity with you guys?
Let's see, he supported Hilary Clinton and Bill Clinton! He still supports the Democrat Party and will most probably support Barak Hussein Obama, formerly Barry Soetero!
Just what does it take?
God have mercy on us when our allegedly Catholic writers can't even tell the difference!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 2:34 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
the original Frank,
Are you actually Doug Kmiec using a non-de-plum, or at least a student of his?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
www.crcoa.com
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 2:42 PM By PTB
Thank you for this excellent article. Just this week in the Boston Diocesan paper "The Pilot," were two very confusing articles put out by the CNS, both articles had quotes from people from the Catholic in Alliance for the Common Good and Catholics United. I checked out their websites, since the articles didn't ring true and found that while they didn't outright say they supported abortion all articles they referenced supported it. It is very worrisome when you can't even trust your Diocesan paper to print what is truly Catholic.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 2:43 PM By Donald Casillo
Pro-abortion, not pro-choice. Tell it like it is.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 2:53 PM By Jennifer Goff
As communications director for Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, I would like to correct some errors in Mr. Smith’s blog posting.
1. Catholics in Alliance is unequivocally opposed to abortion. We actively support effective legal, cultural and social efforts to reduce and end abortion. This is clearly stated on our website and in our platform.
2. David Wilhelm has never had any connection to our organization. He was never recruited for our board of directors.
3. Alexia Kelley did not serve as “religious outreach coordinator for John Kerry.” This job was held by Mara Vanderslice. She served as a consultant to the DNC for 5 weeks prior to the 2004 election. Previously she had worked for 9 years for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Catholic Campaign for Human Development.
4. Our board chair, Ambassador Elizabeth Bagley, is a lifelong Catholic who supports a variety of Catholic organizations, including the Archdiocese of Washington DC, Catholic Charities and numerous other Catholic causes. Her husband, Smith Bagley, served for years as President of the Board of Regents of Catholic University of America, where he helped create the Cardinals’ Dinner which has raised millions of dollars for Catholic University. Amb. Bagley was appointed by President Bush to a bipartisan President’s Advisory Commission on Public Diplomacy. Mr. Smith’s depiction of her record is inaccurate and incomplete.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 3:06 PM By Viva Cristo
Original Frank:
If we substituted the word "slavery" for "abortion", and read again the comments you made, would you still stick to your comments?
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 5:14 PM By Jimmy Mac
Oooooooooo. Bagley contributed to the Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund! Off with her head! Confine her to the lowest part of Hades! Deny her communion! Seize her children for ransom!
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 5:30 PM By Fr. M.P.
Jennifer Goff, do any of your staff or authors dissent from any of the Catholic Church's teachings?
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 8:00 PM By Dan
"1. Catholics in Alliance is unequivocally opposed to abortion. We actively support effective legal, cultural and social efforts to reduce and end abortion. This is clearly stated on our website and in our platform" Jennifer, I don't know anythng about your group, but if you or your leaders fund pro-abortion politicians, then your disavowal of abortion is at best disingenuos. Comparing Smith's statements with yours, I suspect you are both being a bit slippery.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 8:04 PM By JLS
Technically speaking, the abortion rate for Catholics is zero, since it carries a laetae sententiae excommunication ... At the moment of consent to abortion, the Catholicism of the mother ceases to exist. Sadly she aborts herself from the Mystical Body, ie Bride of Christ, before she aborts her baby. She thus ends her journey to Heaven; those not Heaven bound are not Catholic.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 9:25 PM By Dan
"Healthy individuals in a healthy society do not want to kill their children. " Original Frank, I guess you do not believe in the doctrine of Original Sin. That was my earlier post, original Frank; by your response to me I see you did not understand my point. This is not your fault; I was being too cryptic. What I meant was that due to original sin the "healthy individuals/healthy society" comment is something of a illusion. Obama is a healthy individual yet he is quite outspoken about abortion rights, even for his own daughters. Due to sin, healthy individuals can and will choose abortion, and a healthy society, such as our own, will freely sanction it as an expression of freedom to do with one's life as one will (see the Casey v. Plannned Parenthood decision). I am saying your statement is totally unrealistic because it does not consider the blinding effect of sin on healthy individuals and societies. Your "healthy society" does simply not exist, and Obama's strong "reproductive rights" stance will do nothing to remove the insanity.
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Posted Friday, September 05, 2008 10:45 PM By Anne T.
Oh, what a tangled web they weave when once they begin to deceive.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:30 AM By pdawg
Original Frank, healthy individuals in a healthy society should not rob banks, but they do and they will, and that's why a healthy society makes a rule to not rob banks. You talk as if you expect someone with a magic wand from Obamaland will spread pixie dust and all will be ok.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 9:01 AM By harry
The plan put forward by the Obama campaign to "educate" and work together to reduce the "need" for abortion is not a good faith effort to address the problem. It is a ploy to keep abortion legal. It has the blessing of all the pro-abortion elements in the country. Inf fact, it seems to have originated with them. They see a threat to Roe v. Wade and they realize how important Roe is in this battle. They know the abortion rate would drop way down if it were reversed. We should too. Have we forgotten that within a few years after Roe was decided, the abortion rate increased about ten-fold in America. So don't underestimate the importance of the law in this regard. Above all, do not be side-tracked from the work under way to reverse Roe. Another point, the "education" that the Obama supporters have in mind is the so-called "comprehensive sex education". That means teaching youngsters how to use condoms and other contraceptives, while acknowledging, in nod and wink fashion, that "abstinence is the only foolproof" way to avoid pregnancy. That sort of thing does not reduce abortions. It INCREASES them, as Planned Parenthood well knows.Lastly can anyone who looks at Sen. Obama's record on this issue be so gullible as to believe he wants to reduce the abortion rate? Face it, the abortion industry gives him a 100% approval rating because he is their man. He will protect Roe. McCain will reverse it. The choice is clear.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 10:29 AM By Doug Z.
For those Catholics, presumably of good will, who identify themselves as Democrats, might I propose an alternative to voting for the most radically pro abortion and pro sodomy Presidential candidate ever, one Barry Hussein Obama? Vote for John McCain and Sarah Palin! On many issues, Senator McCain is what Democrats used to be, strong on defense, supportive of tax policies favorable to the traditional family but looking for government solutions for certain problems and a support of labor unions. I am serious as the traditionally conservative Republican view of a very limited government seems to have disappeared in practice. If it hadn't, Congressman Ron Paul would have done better in the Republican primaries. I don't agree with Senator McCain on everything, but I don't question his patriotism or basic decency as I do the Marxist sounding agitating lawyer from Chicago. We have an obligation for the Common Good of our fellow citizens, including the unborn to do what is best for the country, this is what "Country First" means. So, Catholics registered as Democrats, what is more important to you, making sure "your guy" wins, even though he would allow infanticide, unlimited abortion, homosexual "marriage", and the aggressive promotion of policies hostile to the family or ensuring at least a fighting chance for this country I assume we all love?
Vote for the Vet and the Mommy, not the plagiarist and the commie!
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 11:46 AM By JLS
The strategy of the Republican party has not changed since "Read my lips": Palin is simply another promise like that of no tax hikes. Many pie in the sky types love to vote for a future that never materializes ... this is what the GOP capitalizes on for 40% of their vote.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 1:06 PM By Doug Z
And the strategy of the Democrat party hacks seems to be that of an ever tighter embrace of the culture of death as they slide down the slippery slope towards hell......bringing everyone else including Republicans with them. Since when is abortion and sodomy looking out for the underdog?
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:10 PM By The original Frank
Viva Christo: I've heard the abortion-as-slavery argument before. St Paul himself does not agitate for abolition: See the Letters to the Ephesians (ch 6) and to Philemon. In Paul's society, with no hope of achieving abolition, it was pointless to abandon other Social Justice issues in favor of The Impossible. So it is today with abortion: We are called to speak against abortion and do whatever we can to reduce its frequency and especially its root causes in poverty and ignorance. There is today no perfect candidate who totally supports Life and Social Justice because our society is not ready to support such a candidte. I would sin gravely were I to USE the abortion issue as an excuse to support a candidate who favors excess military aggression, opposes universal health care for mothers and children and proposes to lower taxes for people like me rather than support the poor. My sin would not be my vote, but my motivation.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:11 PM By The original Frank
Regarding "Healthy": I insist that someone who robs banks is not mentally or spiritually healthy, whatever the state of his body. A society which permits widespread poverty, supports military aggression and makes abortion seem like a reasonable solution to unwanted pregnancy is not healthy. When we examine our consciences carefully enough, perhaps with a spiritual director's help, we realize that none of us are totally healthy. Our job as Christians is to move ourselves and our society closer to complete health in body and soul.
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Posted Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:12 PM By The original Frank
Kenneth Fisher: Thanks for your compliment that you find my writing comparable to Kmiec's. No, my connection with him is in Spirit only.
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:05 AM By Pax Christi
Original Frank, the abortion issue would be MOOT if only all Catholics would heed the Holy Mother Church and not only regard abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, cloning, embryonic stem-cell research as intrinsic evils that can never, ever be justified or supported, but also have their votes reflect that. But, oh no, they are perfectly content with whatever the Democratic Party preaches. Not me. I once was a blue-dog Democrat but no more. I am not going to allow myself to go into hell with them where those issues belong. The GOP certainly has made itself more hospitable to authentic Catholic values. In short, those who think they can spin the candidates' views to come up with proportionate reasons to vote for Obama are going to find themselves sounding very unconvincing when they come face to face with the aborted souls in the next life.
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:16 PM By William
CNS, Catholic News Service is Catholic in name only. Over there, their first allegiance is to All Things Liberal. and they've been mortally infected with the "Liberation Theology" virus. They do make a fine pretense at being loyal to Holy Church and its teachings, but that's all it is --pretense. They are one more, nay, the primary reason, for the USCCB to dissolve and disband. They have been distorting Catholic information in this country for decades; don't even bother to visit their website as there are far more reliable sources for Catholic news on the Internet.
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 4:25 PM By The original Frank
It is not reasonable to think that Democratic-voting Catholics are "perfectly content with whatever the Democratic Party preaches." Nor is it reasonable to assume that Republican-voting Catholics want to perpetuate poverty and military aggression, even though the GOP platform is hostile to those aspects of Catholic social justice teaching. And both parties support continuance of the death penalty. I expect wealthy Republican souls will have the most explaining to do, since Republican tax policy directly benefits them in this life.
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 5:57 PM By Pax Christi
Sorry, Original Frank, but your shallow reasoning would not sway John Paul the Great, who had this to say: "Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights -- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture -- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition of all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination" (Pope John Paul II, 1988, The Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World (Christifideles Laici), n.38)
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 9:05 PM By JLS
One can derive all sorts of reasons to vote for someone who rules on behalf of evil ... such as there is a spark of good in everyone, or evil is on top anyway no matter how I vote, or whatever. But, the function of the Church is to discipline the nations. It is not to wheedle one's way into the "good" graces of some corrupt tyrant. There are no saints who did this, correct me if I'm wrong. It looks as though, no matter how much of a devil's advocate I try to play, I keep coming up with the position that one cannot vote for Obama and be a Catholic. Is McCain different? Is the ray of Republican hope being generated by God or by the "angel of light", Lucifer? Or, now that Palin would be next in line of succession, would that justify a GOP vote? Would Palin, as president, have the wherewithal to make things happen pro-life? This question gets into the mystery of power ... A. Who would protect her? The Secret Service? Presidents come and go ... do they pay the SS, or does their paycheck come anyway? B. Has she really stood up against Big Oil? It looks more as though she joined Big Oil, and any fight she has made against them was in house only, a matter of strategy. So, does Big Oil need Palin, or would anyone do? C. What makes someone powerful? The public support? Sure, the public supported JFK, but couldn't keep him from being whacked. So, I maintain that Palin is simply the embodiment of business as usual GOP pie in the blue sky promises.
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Posted Sunday, September 07, 2008 10:43 PM By Dan
"We are called to speak against abortion and do whatever we can to reduce its frequency and especially its root causes in poverty and ignorance. " Original Frank, you live in a dream world. The root causes are not poverty and ignorance; never was and never will be. The root cause is sin, the arrogating to ourselves the right to break God's laws with impunity. Pride and concupiscence account for the abortion epidimic: I John 2:16.
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Posted Monday, September 08, 2008 5:36 AM By Fr. M.P.
the original Frank, how many poor Democratic leaders are there?
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Posted Monday, September 08, 2008 8:51 AM By The original Frank
Papamac, save your sorry sorries for someone else. JPII also counseled action to limit the harm done when it is impossible to overturn a moral evil. Looking at annual abortion statistics, we see a slight but steady decline beginning with the Clinton years. Meanwhile we see that other countries with social policy and political discourse more like Obama's have always had abortions at drastically lower rates than the USA. JPII was prophetic in his call for "works of spiritual and material charity toward other families, especially those most in need of help and support, toward the poor, the sick, [...] unmarried mothers and mothers-to-be in difficult situations who are tempted to have recourse to abortion, and so on." GOP policies would cut such support and abandon needy families in favor of military aggression and tax cuts. Obama is far from perfect but his presidency will accomplish more in support of at-risk families. I'll vote for Obama and continue speaking out for Life.
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Posted Monday, September 08, 2008 1:33 PM By Pax Christi
Original Frank's trust in God leaves much to be desired when he says it's impossible to overturn a moral evil, and then tries to finagle his way in convoluted fashion toward achieving his utopian ideal in vain. Listen to Dan. He got it right in saying poverty and wars are the logical outcome of our sins. YOU ARE WANTING TO TREAT THE SYMPTOMS WHEN WE SHOULD BE ERADICATING THE ROOT CAUSE OF THOSE SYMPTOMS! Only by taking an authentic pro-life, pro-family path that kicks abortion, euthanasia, cloning, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem-cell research and so on to the curb can we begin to reform the world in God's image. True love for our neighbors is the fulfillment of God's commandments. As the Democrats have turned their backs on God's laws against killing and adultery, then they have made themselves unfit to govern us, pure and simple. That's not to say the GOP is God's Only Party, but it's the Democrats at this point who are drawing the most fire from the bishops and Magesterium.
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Posted Monday, September 08, 2008 9:17 PM By JLS
The subtle position of "pro-choice" is what the orginal Frank is espousing. This position is based on the fear that the Church cannot carry out the Great Commission, ordered by Christ, to disciple the nations. This position of the original Frank is not a faith position, but an intermediary position allowing the unborn to be killed while mopping up the blood. Recall the verse in the Apocalypse depicting the streets flowing with blood as high as the bridles of the horses ... over four feet deep rivers of blood. Calculate the amount of blood in the typical size aborted baby, multiply by hundreds of millions aborted across the globe and the rivers of blood rise high and flow long. The original Frank, however, in his little boat is blissfully tossing care packages to those he finds in the course of his oddysee.
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Posted Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:54 AM By The original Frank
Pax Christi: I do not lack trust in God, nor did I write that it's impossible to overturn a moral evil --- you've twisted my quote of JPII. Furthermore, YOUR statement that my "ideal [is] in vain" sounds much more like "lack of faith in God." God grants us opportunity to struggle against poverty and to improve health care; we can win these if we vote for the "right" candidate. Other struggles will take longer (abortion, death penalty and much more) no matter whom we vote for. I want us to win the former now and continue to press on the latter.
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Posted Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:20 PM By JLS
Sorry to disappoint you in your view of the Gospel, The original Frank, but Jesus teaches that the poor will always be with us. Too bad you do not hold out the same benefit for the unborn who are being aborted faster than the poor are starving to death.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:10 AM By JLS
The former will not resolve unless the latter is won first.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:50 AM By JLS
ToF, go to the previous thread, and read what Cardinal George says about Catholic social doctrine, that it is based upon protection of the unborn babies. There is now no easy way to circumvent the truth of Catholicism, which puts pre-born babies first, and founds social doctrine upon this. Much harder now to ignore the obvious truth. I'm guessing with this top level episcopal buildup, led by the Pope, that not too far off will come the massive excommunications of all those involved in abortion, regardless of their excuses.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:27 PM By The original Frank
Yes, JLS, Jesus said "you will have the poor always." That's no excuse NOT to work (and vote) to alleviate their suffering. In our context, we will have abortions always. That's no excuse NOT to work (and vote) to reduce their number. Do I understand correctly that you say we cannot reduce poverty and improve health care until we overturn Roe v. Wade? I think the opposite is true: Improve health care, soothe despair and respect for Life will grow! And I welcome your critique of my strategy: Pick the candidate who's more likely to reduce poverty, improve health care for women and children, avoid military entanglement, and inspire good works through his own example of community organizing. But please knock off the unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks. You presume to tell me what I believe --- That is God's job, not yours.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:03 PM By Eileen
The Original Frank, Would you agree that you have to be alive or allowed to live in the first place before someone can soothe you or provide health benefits? Obama voted to do 'neither', in the treatment of little abortion survivors. Your logic is certainly original, Frank. If you say that it's God's job to tell you what to believe, why are you hating God's very clear Commandment, "Thou shalt not Kill"? Why do you prefer Obama over God? Obama won't judge your soul for obedience, God will. Frank, is there anything we can do to help your logic lose it's originality to conformity with God? Frank, what delicious sin is making you so illogical? Please read "Hostage to the Devil', it may save your soul.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:08 PM By JLS
The Catholic Church teaches that social justice depends upon protecting unborn children. Your position, ToF, runs contrary to what the Church teaches. It also has no evidence. It is a myth.
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Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:27 PM By The original Frank
Eileen: It seems to me that much of your comment was about my inner life. I didn't write "God tells me what to believe." I pointed out that it's God's job, not yours or JLS's, to illuminate MY soul, to tell ME what I believe, when I pray. If, like Sean Hannity's "why do you hate,..." schtick, I were to tell you what YOU believe, hate or want, I would be trying, vainly, to usurp God's role. --||-- Since we're making book suggestions, I like: "Zen for Christians" by Boykin. She has really excellent practical suggestions. Would you like to start an on-line book club?
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:52 AM By Dai Yoshida
Original Frank you are mistaken. It is not God's job to tell you what you should believe. That honor belongs to the Holy Father and the Church. Both disagrees with you. Also, you say "other countries with social policy and political discourse more like Obama's have always had abortions at drastically lower rates than the USA." This is also not true. Countries with state run health care system and lower defense budget such as Japan have a staggering number of abortions.
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:01 PM By JLS
In 1977 I computed an estimate of the total number of abortions in Japan from the end of WWII, and it came out to about 50 million. At the same rate, the total now would be about 100 million babies aborted in Japan. *** ToF, your philosophy on the illumination of the soul is one you've made up; and here, all along, I thought your were Christian. But the first thing a Christian encounters is Christ, and this is where the illumination comes from ... but Christ is not a simple idea, ToF, but a living person with two natures, God and man. And now you're seeking illumination from a very watered down source, somebody named Boykin who thinks it comes from imitating a flower. In anthropology, this method is associated with nature sprites, like tree spirits and so forth. It is a highly developed form of what St Paul teaches, namely that God is proven by His creation. How much study does it take to see this?
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:05 PM By JLS
Yes, ToF, let us start a book club. You start by reading the Bible, then report what you get from it. Then it will be your turn to name a reading selection; but, don't be surprised if you get immediate off the cuff explications of whatever you put forward. The more you memorize and understand Scripture, the easier it will be to fan the pages of any book you pick up and know what it is about. Tell me that Zen can do this.
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 1:50 PM By The original Frank
Dai: What I wrote is not about what I SHOULD believe; it's about what I actually DO believe and love, and how that motivates my political behavior. Those who write as if they know what I want or hate are playing a role which belongs to God. They distract our discussion from the issue of voting with a Catholic conscience. --||-- I agree with you, that social policy and health care alone do not determine abortion rates. You bring up Japan as a counterexample, but they apparently have a somewhat lower rate than the USA. Your name suggests that you might have an insight I do not. Can you share it with us? Why, for example, is Japan (a largely non-Christian nation) so different from the Netherlands (a very tolerant nation of progressive Catholics and Protestants), where the abortion rate is about 1/3 ours? I stand by my earlier statement, that abortion rate reflects primarily the nation's soul and not its laws.
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:23 PM By JLS
ToF, you persist in your stubborn campaign to subvert Catholic teaching. You trumpet the primacy of your personal belief, and put down the teaching by the Church that our faith is given and defined by God. We are tasked to learn true belief; but you don't even bat an eyelid when several people point out to you that Catholicism is not what you decide is true. Your attitude on this has to change; it's worse than invincible ignorance: It's what Scripture describes as the blind leading the blind. You've made an idol out of your bishop, and are drumming up your homemade religion, while claiming any opposition to be disrespecting your bishop. In the latter times, which have been going on now for a while, St John describes several leading antagonists against God; you sound like one of them, aka the "false prophet".
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Posted Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:11 PM By Larry K
ToF stated: "…Improve health care, soothe despair and respect for Life will grow!…" What a pile of rubbish. This is an issue of morality -- not wealth. Society (US) is as a whole substantially wealthier (materially) than it was compared to 50 -100 years ago, and yet we have 1000's times more abortions today.
It's a delusion to think that if we just give people more material goods and services that they will all just decide to be happy and morally good citizens. This is cultural Marxist propaganda and a utopian dream. Adherence to authentic Christian morality and teachings is what leads people to be morally upstanding citizens -- not more material goods. Frank is just another socialist/Marxist (Democrat) type who in reality advocates to help people to money stolen from other people. Of course we are assured that these socialist types are being caring and charitable because they want to raise taxes (take peoples money) and redistribute wealth to those they deem in need. Lets see -- the Dem's and Obama favor abortion on demand, laws protecting and promoting perverted behaviors like homosexuality, attacks on the family/marriage -- definition of marriage, Feminism, Radical Environmentalism and just about any other anti-Christian stance one can think of as a matter of policy. Aspects of this Socialism has been condemned by Encyclicals going back to the 1800's. POPE LEO XIII in 1878 (QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS) warned us about socialist attacks on the natural union of man and women, and how these socialists assail the right of private property by a scheme of "… horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men,…" attack private property (taxes - wealth redistribution). The tax and spend Obama policies won't lead to prosperity, and much of his social polices are anti-Christian.
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Posted Friday, September 12, 2008 7:29 AM By Dai Yoshida
original Frank: It is common knowledge among Japanese researchers that number of abortion in Japan is under reported as much as 300%. This is primarily due to widespread tax evasion by the politically powerful abortion providers.
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