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“The resisters”

Dissident theologian says Paul VI’s liturgical reforms threatened by small but influential faction inside the Vatican


A small group of Vatican insiders has never accepted the Second Vatican Council’s liturgical reforms, a “powerful but determined” clique that continues to resist the changes wrought by Pope Paul VI, says well-known dissident theologian Fr. Richard McBrien.

Writing in his column published in the Feb. 1 Tidings, the newspaper of the Los Angeles archdiocese, McBrien calls members of this group “resisters.”

The subject of McBrien’s column was a new book, A Challenging Reform, by Archbishop Piero Marini, papal master of ceremonies for Popes Paul VI and John Paul II. Though Marini should have succeeded Cardinal Francis Arinze as Prefect of the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, says McBrien, Pope Benedict XVI appointed Marini president of the Pontifical Committee for International Eucharistic Congresses instead. Marini is no longer even papal MC.

The “powerful and determined group” would have “raised a holy ruckus” if Marini’s replacement of Arinze had even been contemplated, says McBrien, because Marini represents what they chiefly oppose – the “de-clericalization of the liturgy.” To this group of “resisters,” the “Church is identical with the hierarchy and the priests who serve under the bishops. The laity, on the other hand, are simply the beneficiaries of the sacramental ministrations of the clergy, in a process ultimately controlled by the Vatican.”

The “resisters” do not so much object to the vernacular Mass, but to the fact “that the laity could now fully understand it and actively participate in it.” For this reason, the “resisters” object to “the turning around of the altar to face the congregation,” removal of communion rails, reception of communion in the hand and while standing (and not kneeling), for “each of these changes signaled again that the laity are not passive observers at Mass, but active participants.”

A new ecclesiology, which is really what the “resisters” oppose, underlies all the post-conciliar liturgical changes, says McBrien. “The Communion rail is gone,” he says, “because there should be no barrier between the sanctuary and the worshiping congregation. Communion is given in the hand because the laity should feed themselves rather than be fed like infants or very young children. The communicants stand rather than kneel because they approach the priest as co-equals with him in Baptism, not as serfs coming before their lord and master to express their fealty.”

Marini’s book, says McBrien, not only “presents the case for the perennial validity of the council's liturgical reforms,” it “also challenges those who would, some 40 years later, attempt to undermine those reforms, in opposition not only to Vatican II but to the expressed wishes of Pope Paul VI himself.” In 1965, the pope said the “new way of doing things… will have to prevent and shake up the passivity of the people present at Mass. Before, it was enough to assist; now it is necessary to take part. Before, being there was enough, now attention and activity are required."

For McBrien, “the Mass is not something performed by the clergy, but is an action of the entire congregation. Like an orchestra leader, the priest-presider cannot presume to play all of the instruments himself, but must strive to bring them into a general harmony.”


READER COMMENTS

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 3:27 AM By Michael
Whatever it is, it is not Catholicism!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 4:13 AM By Janek
Like all the hippie leftists of the 1960's he will be leaving this world soon and nobody will even remember his name, but Christ's Church will still be HERE!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 4:17 AM By SNoel
I hope these "resisters" don't do as much damage to the church as the "protestors" (protestants) did. Are we not the "One, Holy and Apostolic" Church?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 6:36 AM By Mark Jacobson
McBrien is a heretic and should be de-frocked as a priest. He is also insulting, not only to Traditional Catholics, not only to all the millions of Catholics fed and nourished by the Mass before Vatican II, but also to the Pope himself, who is fully behind the return of Tradition to the Church. Make no mistake about it - the current crisis in the Church is exactly the result of heretics and modernists like McBrien who have their own vision of the Church, which is a complete and utter rupture from Tradition and thus from the Catholic Church itself. Pope Benedict has begun to correct the massive abuses of the last 40 years, and we must help him every way we can, especially by our prayers and sacrifices. And yes, we are proud to be resisters to what McBrien and his fellow radicals have done to the Church. And we will continue to resist until all Tradition is restored, until communion in the hand is banned, until altar rails are restored, until all Masses are celebrated "ad orientem", until Latin is given again its rightful place in the life of the Church, and until the architectural destructions of our churches are corrected. What a waste the machinations of people like McBrien and his ilk have been for the Church! What devastation they have wrought in the Church! What a mess to clean up! But thanks be to God that resisters, under the leadership of Pope Benedict, have begun to get the upper hand. Make no mistake about it. The Traditional Mass IS the answer, and that is why McBrien and his followers are SO fearful of it. And that is why the radicals ripped out the altar rails, installed table altars, and gutted churches so vehemently in the years following the Council. They were all breathing deep the smoke of Satan which Pope Paul VI admitted had entered the Church, and they wanted to erase all memory of the Tradition that had come before Vatican II. We must resist what they have done until everything is restored in Christ.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 6:59 AM By John L. Sillasen
Here is another problem McBrien doesn't understand. Pope Paul VI died, and we have had several popes since then. Presently the Church has one Pope ... McBrien seems to be saying that the Church has more than one pope. How long will it be before these people insist that not only does the Church have several hundred popes, all but one having died, but even more than one pope presently living in this temporal world? Some "traditionalists" seem to espouse this multiple pope idea, but now that liberal McBrien pushes it, one can conclude that it is simply a thing common to minds which have become static. It is like falling asleep while staying awake, perhaps; I once fell asleep while driving a car. It lasted only a moment, but my field of vision became a "freeze frame" just like watching a video which suddenly freezes the motion. So, I wonder if it is sort of like this, that some people's minds suddenly freeze and for them everything stops. I woke up and steered the car back on course, but there is no reason that the mind would not sometimes just stay "asleep" while the person is awake. Hard to express this view in a few words, but a partially frozen mind would select some elements from real time into its frozen view, while excluding others. So, I do not really buy into this concept taken for granted that there are "liberal and conservative" ways ... reality is neither.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 7:06 AM By Robert Lockwook
Thank goodness there are at least some in the Vatican that realize the "reforms " of Paul VI are in error. All one needs to see is the conditionof the Church as a result of these "reforms". How about the celebrant priest walking his dog up the asile with a blanket "Go Fourty Niners" over it (pastor at Pacific Grove)!! Our Lady of Fatima told us there would be times like this - no reason to be shocked and it will only get worse while we read the discourses of "leaders" like McBrien.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 7:55 AM By Mary Sisak
If McBrien does not agree with the beliefs of the Catholic Church why doesn't he get out and start his own church? That's what the protestants do.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:05 AM By Matthew Joseph
Bravo, He is correct, also the only differance between some priest and lay people is ordination. The pope forgets us lay worship the Father just as they if not better for our lack of arrogance towards others. God bless and pray for the day when there are no more divisons in the Lord. God Bless and peace always in Yeshua. Matthew

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:08 AM By George A. Jocums
Why does he dress like a "Mr." McBrien rather than a "Fr." McBrien? Isn't he happy in his vocation?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:17 AM By PATRICK
McBride states that the people are now really participating in the mass since the post -councillar changes. He is absolutely correct. While over 70% use to attend mass, weekly attendence is now down to less than 30%. They're participation is walking out the door.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:21 AM By sean
i will pray for mr mcbrians eternal soul

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:24 AM By miranda
This guy clearly does not know or understand the meaning of TRANSUBSTATIATION and Christ's real presence. We don't kneel before the priest! We Kneel and come before the very Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the God of the Universe! Some people need to read more...

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:25 AM By retlaw5
very confused and noncatholic "Catholic priest"

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:50 AM By Sophia
"The mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceeding small." Waiting for them tests one's Christian patience to the extreme. But when they are at last finished grinding, McBrien and his kindred will be only a smudge on the pages of Church history.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:06 AM By Betty
I like being an active participant rather than a passive observer but some of the things I do as an "active participant" are frowned upon and one priest told my husband that he was going to try to get a restraining order against me.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:08 AM By hollingsworth
Fr. McBrien is a Church dissident and a heretic. He will not even don the clerical collar. Why should any sincere Catholic care what he says or avows?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:51 AM By Timothy Clint
As I remember, a small but influential group, namely the Rhineland bishops gained control of the V2 and the results can be seen every Sunday at Mass and in fine throughout every bit of the Roman Catholic Church. Now the tables are turned and McBrien doesn't like it. Perhaps he should crawl back into his hole and just retire and let sensible Catholic who are really committed to building the faith and the church have thier time. In the end we will see which soil contributes more to the building up of God's Church.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:03 AM By miranda
This guy clearly does not know or understand the meaning of TRANSUBSTATIATION and Christ's real presence. We don't kneel before the priest! We Kneel and come before the very Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the God of the Universe! Some people need to read more...

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:18 AM By tom amadeo
When you worship differently,invariably you believe differently."The communicants stand rather than kneel because they approach the priest as co-equals with him in Baptism,not as serfs coming before their lord and master to express their fealty."What theologic monsence! When we approach THE EUCHARIST,if we believe we are approaching the body and blood of Christ,should we not show reverence of the highest order? And since when are the priest and laity co-equals in the church BECAUSE of Baptism?How about validly baptized protestants? Nonsence theology,again! "Before,being there(at mass) was enough,now attention and activity are required." Indeed! Required to do what? Bring the bread and wine to the dinner table(formerly altar)?Assist in the pronouncement of the consecration formula? Become necessary in the ritual in order to confect the eucharist? And,"the mass is not something performed by the clergy,but is an action of the entire congregation,"etc---! Right out of the Protestant manual.Marini ,from the Vatican,and Mc Brien,from wherever preach the heresy of the new order.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:34 AM By Joseph
Unfortunately,Fr McBrien sincerely believes what he espouses, that is not to say he is sincerely wrong..his power is of t)his world, he speaks of placements within the Vatican as a political commentator does when describing political manourvering in the state. The Holy Father has listened to Divine inspiration and obediently acted upon it to protect Christ's Body here on earth. I would u

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:38 AM By Dan
I have just checked my copy of the Vatican II documents and I can't find Fr. McBrien's assertion that turning around the altar or removing the communion rail, or eliminating kneeling -- part of this new ecclesiology-- is mandated there. Instead I read that Gregorian chant should have "pride of place" and something about the importance of the pipe organ. McBrien's assumption is that the participation of the laity must look as much like the participation of the priest as possible. My question is, participation in what? The Holy Sacrifice of Calvary perpetuated or represented by the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, or a "celebration" of who we are as the people of God above all else? I get the feeling our present Holy Father thinks the former emphasis has suffered at the expense of the latter, and wants to restore a proper perspective. It is inconsistent of McBrien to show allegiance to Paul VI but not to Benedict XVI. It is he who is pushing for a reform of the reform.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:42 AM By Mickmont
True, active participation according to authentic Catholic theology as explained by St. Peter Chrysologus, a bishop (from the office of readings, Tuesday of the 4th week of Easter) is as follows: "The Apostle [Paul] says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. Brethren, this sacrifice follows the pattern of Christ's sacrifice by which He gave His body as a living immolation for the life of the world. He really made His body a living sacrifice, because, though slain, He continues to live. In such a victim death receives its ransom, but the victim remains alive. Death itself suffers the punishment. This is why death for the martyrs is actually a birth, and their end a beginning. Their execution is the door to life, and those who were thought to have been blotted out from the earth shine brilliantly in heaven. Paul says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a sacrifice, living and holy. The prophet [Isaiah] said the same thing: Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but you have prepared a body for me." Thus, we see how far afield the reductionist theology of modernists like Richard McBrien is from orthodoxy and orthopraxy which is to make the body a temple of the Holy Spirit by ascetical practices and the eradication of sin from our lives. What happens to the individual worshipper during the mass, in the offering of self that they then make in union with Christ, is a reflection of the spiritual posture maintained through the rest of the day and/or week. This offering cannot be made apart from an active ongoing spiritual union with Christ throughout the rest of our lives maintained through constant prayer. The Tridentine Mass is an expression of just such spiritual union in all of its prayers and its gestures. Tragically, the Novus Ordo is an oversimplified corruption of such sublime theology.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:43 AM By Simone
The word heretic is thrown around here wantonly. What exactly did Fr. McBrien say that is heretical?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:45 AM By Joseph
Unfortunately,Fr McBrien sincerely believes what he espouses, that is not to say he is sincerely wrong..his power is of (t)his world, he speaks of placements within the Vatican as a political commentator does when describing political manouvering in the state. The Holy Father has listened to Divine inspiration and obediently acted upon it to protect Christ's Body here on earth. I would urge Fr McBrien to, once again, read his Catechism.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:56 AM By Lisa
Fr. Richard McBrien is one of many priests in dire need of prayers.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:01 AM By Ann
Active participation was encouraged by Pope St. Pius X, and other Popes before him, long before we had the vernacular and the Broadway show tune hymns from OCP and others. Participation in the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Rite) means prayer and singing the Latin Commons (chant Kyrie, etc.) This rite seems to focus more vertically than the vernacular, where some feel they have only worshipped God by leaving Mass with a good feeling after shaking everyone's hand at the sign of peace, singing peppy songs that often have nothing to do with the liturgical prayers at the Mass. It takes decades after every church Council to get back on track, to achieve a balance. We are still several years away from that time...meanwhile we pray for such a time.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:09 AM By Tom
Some things are just too Catholic for McBrien.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:11 AM By Elizabeth
This Priest has been a sad person for a long time. He needs our prayers.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:21 AM By Sigmund
I am always amazed on this site of reading posts by schismatics calling ordinary Catholics heretics. It reminds me of the Donatists of the 5th century. No one is really Catholic except others who think and act exactly like themselves. They don't drink the vernacular kool aid! Hilarious!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:21 AM By Paul
You folks really need to grow up, you say that your are super catholic's but you don't even respect or for that matter accept the reforms of Pope Paul Vl according to Vatican ll. You don't understand that the church does not belong to the left wing, or in your case the right wing, but to Jesus Christ under the direction of the Holy Father!! What's wrong with you?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:35 AM By Philippe
This pope sounds more like a Catholic every day! We have missed sensus catolicus since 1965.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 11:44 AM By Fr. M.P.
"Resisters?" How appropriate. Sin is all about resisting Grace. Sin is preventing God's Love to flow from Him through Our Lady (Mediatrix of All Grace) through our charitable actions and good will to others.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 12:12 PM By Bill
Father McBrien makes much of the turning around of the altar to face the people. How strange. I thought the idea was to turn the celebrant around to face the people. And I wonder too if kneeling and taking the Host on the tongue is, in his mind, less efficacious than standing and taking the Host in my hand? If so, how? Is the Eucharist in the former instance of less value than in the latter? He doesn't tell us. And his silence speaks volumes.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 1:05 PM By Tony de New York
Father McBrien is a wolf in a sheep clothes.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 1:50 PM By hollingsworth
Simone: "The word heretic is thrown around here wantonly. What exactly did Fr. McBrien say that is heretical?" Even the U.S. Bishops' Committee on Doctrine in 1985, not exactly a rightwing Catholic "schismatic" bunch, had some serious questions about his book Catholicism. Now in its 3rd edition, I understand, Catholicism does not bear any official Imprimatur. He can not even pass muster among many of the liberal bishops here or in the Vatican.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 2:35 PM By David
Fr. Corapi once said in a talk of his that at a particular seminary that one of the priests left over from the sixties looked like an old hippy.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 2:40 PM By Mark Jacobson
I have respect for Vatican II as a pastoral council. What I do not respect is those who have hijacked as an excuse to transform the Church into something it isn't. Vatican II did not say anything about Communion in the hand, altar girls, Mass facing the people, removal of Communion rails, banning Gregorian chant, destroying Catholic art and architecture, or discarding other traditions of the Faith. And those who have done such things are worried now because the real teachings of Catican II are being espoused by the Pope and by Traditionalists.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 2:49 PM By Puttss
McBriens is not a heretic and he is not a dissident. He is a thinking Theologian, whether you like it or not.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 3:32 PM By Art of Redding
Another sad fact about the dissident Fr. McBrien is that he still teaches at the "catholic" University of Notre Dame. Get holy or die trying.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 3:44 PM By Dan Guenzel
That picture that the editors included of dapper, smiling Richard McBrien is priceless. He looks like a clone of Howdy Doody, and one wonders if Buffalo Bob can be far behind him. But really, does anyone care what this nonentity has to say about anything? His remarks here are unworthy of comment so I wont waste time even attempting to do so. He's good for an occasional laugh, though. I'll give him that.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 3:56 PM By BTJ
Who are the real resisters? The Council of Nicaea ( you know, the Nicene Creed one) ruled for the whole Church that it is unlawful for believing Christians to kneel on Sundays or any day during the EAster Season thus denying their belief in the Ressurection and the power of their BAptism.... so who's dissenting now?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 4:27 PM By Russell Neglia
Fr. McBrien is an apostate priest. Why he is still a priest is beyond me. Last year he wrote an article in the Tidings defending pro-choice politicians such as the former Congressman and heretic priest Robert Drinan. Drinan, apparently, was one of his heroes. Drinan, as you may recall, defended President Clinton's failure to sign a ban on partial birth abortion - the killing of a perfectly fine baby ready for delivery.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 4:44 PM By Fr. j
These folks have been running the show since Vatican II. So exactly how have the "resisters" been successful? The McBrien's never practice true introspection. They should ask themselves WHY their interpretation of Vatican II has lost. They never consider that maybe...just maybe...they have been wrong. Arrogance, pride, self-centeredness...this typifies them and their view of liturgy. They have failed. Fortunately the Holy Spirit has replaced them. It's Lent, they should consider sack cloth and ashes.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 4:46 PM By Angel Solis
Really good!!!!!!!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 5:14 PM By John L. Sillasen
BTJ, were you there at the time? Hey, Dan Guenzel, how come you're dissing the late great Howdy Doody and Buffalo Bob? Puttss, when you connect McBrien and the word "theologian" it would be better to put quotation marks around "theologian" ... his logic is holey, not holy. His "theology" is "the all o' gea". He is also suspect in that ... well, have you ever heard him or read him mention the "little people"? I didn't think so. Sigmund, you're the only one on this site who says the stuff you claim everyone else says. Paul, could you be more specific, please?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 7:26 PM By Anne
Gosh, it was hard to read this and not lose my dinner! That's always the effect McBrien has on me. Right on, Fr. j!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:07 PM By JMody
Fr. McBrien "gets to wear" a Roman collar or even a cassock, but chooses not to. His opinions, reflected here in the mention and central theme of a "new ecclesiology", reflect a lack of understanding that the Church is founded on Scripture and Tradition. Since he disregards Tradition, one can only wonder what church's theology it is that he expounds. As my old commander used to say, "If a guy like that worked for me, he WOULDN"T WORK for ME!"

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:12 PM By Ken
In the old days a Catholic could be excommunicated. After Vatican II, I can't recall hearing this pronouncement. Currently flagrant violations of canon law, tradition, and doctrine occur and are never addressed other than with bits of dry rhetoric. Cardinals and bishops and priests and nuns remain in place regardless. Thus parish rolls are depleted as believers walk across the street to evangelical pastors. Seemingly the power to excommunicate has been removed from Church armamentarium. He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity (Job 36:10). Offenders are multiplying; discipline is nowhere now. For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine: but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers after their own lusts, and they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables (II Timothy 4:3,4) Reference: There is No Site for Your Laments

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:20 PM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Richard McBrien is one of Mahony's favorites! God bless, yours in Their Hearts, Kenneth M. Fisher, Founder & Chairman Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc. www.crcoa.com

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 8:51 PM By cjo
Why does Card. Mahony's newspaper continue to give prominent space to this dissident?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:14 PM By Observer
And people say that I am a nut job. What is next, Star Trek Masses? Beam me up, Scottie.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:24 PM By SCU
I went to a Call to Action event once (out of curiosity) and what I saw was a bunch of old viscerally angry liberals that think the Church should be molded in their image. The Catholic Left is almost dead (Gary Wills and the Jesuits aside). The thing about the Catholic Left is that they don't love the Church, and so without love how could they ever survive.

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 9:45 PM By Robert Beck
It does explain, why don't pro-life participants never see the " ordained participants ", with their pastoral training, on the streets as crisis counselors? Maybe, Rev-Mister Ritchie Rich can explain Paul IV and Marini's take on the Fifth Commandment - " Thou shall not kill the soul, says the Lord. ", eh?

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:36 PM By SCU
Ken: Apparently the only people that get excommunicated today are individuals who love and revere Catholic Tradition, whereas revisionists get promoted!

Posted Friday, February 08, 2008 10:38 PM By SCU
Paul: We could do without your Rodney King Catholicism, "can't we all just get along?"

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 4:06 AM By GerardC
The peculiar views of Fr McBrien are undergoing slow strangualtion, he knows it and sounds more shrill with every reassertion of honour for the sacred, holy Catholic faith. Roll on the reconquista!

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 5:24 AM By Angelo
Pope Paul Vl, reaffirmed the teaching of the church, Stating, "Neither priests nor people are proprietors of the Mass, only Jesus Christ is the proprietor, for it is He, that renews his sacrifice of the cross." He also at one point stated, " I detect the smoke of satan has entered the very house of God!" He also lamented, "My crown of thorns has been, the way priests are acting today." Back in the 70's, I tried to bring the Holy Father's words to light. But many would only reply that Paul Vl was old and senile, and that he should retire. So that room would be made for a more up to date Pope. And if memory serves me right, Fr. Richard Mcbrien was the main instigator of this insult to Pope Paul Vl. And now he wants to invoke the memory of this Holy Pope with Fondness? Oh Well!, what else can one expect from a heretic.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:02 AM By catholic
If there are infiltrations to destroy the enemy from within and all that for the temporal power of this world how much more the devil will infiltrate his agents into The Catholic Church to destroy eternal salvation of as much eternal souls as possible. And you think pope cannot scandalize the faithful? And you think he cannot be reproved for such actions? Think again, because, according to The Bible (Galatians 2:11-14), or better, to The Holy Spirit Himself, he can! Jesus didn't warn everybody to watch (Mark 13:37) for nothing.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:57 AM By Andrew
This McBrien guy needs an exorcism. He is mightily possesed by the devil and spouting his erroneous theology. How disgusting!!!!

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 12:47 PM By Joe
McBrien makes absolute historical and common sense. The laity were required to kneel at eucharistic reception by the Council of Rouen in the 9th century and to stick out their tongues not long thereafter. It was also during the Middle Ages that rood screens were installed to separate priest from laity during the mass. Latin continued to be used even though the laity did not understand it (ironically, Latin was a "cultural concession" by Pope Damasus I for his Roman Christians who could no longer understand the original Greek language of the mass in the Eternal City). During the mass in the Middle Ages, the laity prayed their prayers while the priest with back to people and in a soft voice prayed his prayers. The laity's role was basically limited to the offertory procession (until it was no longer used prior to Vatican II) and looking at the priest elevate the sacred host at the consecration. They seldom received holy communion. As McBrien has indicated, the mass increasingly became the province of the priest and the laity increasingly became mere spectators (when their heads weren't raised during the consecration or sermon) before Vatican II. McBrien is simply telling it like it is. The affection for the Tridentine liturgy betrays poor catechesis and a lack of understanding of the Christian Faith. In the meantime, as church sociologists Hoge et al recently pointed out, the so-called "JPII priests" go their merry way in one direction while the rest of us (including the young/er) proceed in a different direction based on the teachings of Vatican II.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 2:07 PM By gravey
So Joe, by your logic even Pope Benidict XVI's "affection for the Tridentine liurgy betrays poor catechesis and a lack of understanding of the Christian Faith." Wow!

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 3:26 PM By John L. Sillasen
Joe, even if you are correct in your allegations, don't you wonder at how the Church created Western Civilization with all the peasants hanging their heads when not sticking out their tongues? Now that true democracy has been up and running in recent centuries, after a long gap from the time of the first Democrat, Eve, and the first Republican, Adam, it must seem refreshing to be among the generation which solves all world problems by putting the Church in its place.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:04 PM By Angelo
Joe, in 1993 my wife and I went to the shrine of Our Lady of the Pilar, In Zaragoza Spain. There we attended one of those Masses from the middle ages of which you speak. In the Basilica at a distance we spotted a Sanctuary lit by candles. It was separated by a huge iron grating from the people. About 100 people all knelt on the bare marble floor in complete silence, it was Holy mass. The priest had his back to the people, He wore richly embroidered vestments. At communion those of us who received, knelt at the grating and received our Lord from the priest through openings between the iron bars. When Mass was over, the candles were put out and those who received, remained kneeling in silent prayer. This was an experience that I long for, forever. Mass is truly Heaven on earth. Pope BXVl has clearly stated that when the council called for active participation at Mass, the council was talking about alot of silence, and the active participation is more about Interior Participation. Too bad that, because of People like McBrien and you, I may never have such a mystical experience at Mass again.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:18 PM By Fr. J
Joe, as one of those JP II priests I can tell you all about directions. Those who are going in the direction of the Church and Vatican II are moving right along. Where do you see the vitality in the Church today? Among the McBrien's? LOL, nope. Among those who have hijacked Vatican II to create Barney Masses? Spare me. In fact it is among the orthodox, who truly understand Vatican II, that you will find any growth. You are making your merry way right out of the Church and you don't even notice because you can't tell the difference between the Church and the world anymore. Food for thought.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 9:49 PM By John
If everyone would actually read the sacramentary and the liturgy documents none of this would be an issue.

Posted Saturday, February 09, 2008 10:22 PM By John L. Sillasen
I sometimes wonder if the genius of the Vatican II documents is the very fact that they can take a variety of interpretations. The result is to cut the herd ... er, flock in terms of separating the goats from the sheep. What is it that we see actually happening? A division where the faithful and the unfaithful are parting ways. In history the Church has made some great unifications; now, perhaps, the chaff is being winnowed from the grain.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 12:52 PM By tom amadeo
Hey,Puttss---so McBride is a "thinking theologian." And so were Martin Luther,Thomas Cardinal Wolsey,and Arius to name only a few---and there is nothing you can do about it. Moreover,your name is so appropriate.

Posted Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:01 PM By SCU
I still don't know if I buy the "hijacked" Vatican II thesis, or if Vatican II was just plain contrary to Catholicism. So few people actually read the documents of Vatican II, but many individuals gladly invoke "the spirit of Vatican II."

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:25 AM By Fr. M.P.
SCU, the modernists used selected sound-bites out of Vatican II documents, along with malicious lies helped with Mass media (young at that time), to promote their errors. If you actually read the Vatican II documents, you will see they are faithful to Catholic teachings. Most things you hear from the so-called "spirit of Vatican II" are modernist lies. One example is that altar girls were specifically forbidden in Vatican II, in keeping with 'T'radition.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 8:34 AM By Sigmund
There are some who are moved by the solemnity and devoutness of the traditional Latin Mass. There are others who are equally devoted to the openness and laity participation in the ordinary Mass. In both cases, the essential elements of the Mass are present: Offertory, Consecration and Communion. There is no reason why the two rites (and others) cannot exist peacefully side by side. Throughout history there have been many ways of saying the Mass that are as ancient as the Roman Mass: Sarum, Greek, Maronite, Chaldean, etc. The one constant over 2,000 years has been change in devotions, liturgy and disciplines given the circumstances of culture, societal change and geography.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 9:14 AM By James Charles
This man is living in a world of make-believe. Beware of the wolves in sheep’s clothing….

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 5:11 PM By John L. Sillasen
Sigmund, although rule reasons, reason does not always rule.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 6:15 PM By SCU
Fr. MP: I don't know if religious liberty, ecumenism and collegiality are traditional Catholic teachings? Regardless though the liberals have definitely won round one of post-Vatican II era, now we'll see who takes round two.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 6:35 PM By Paula
I am firmly convinced with all my soul that with all the strife in the Vatican II church from the magesterium to the laity whom many are in complete disarray with fundamental catholic teachings, that we now live in the time that St Paul the Apostle described as the Great Apostacy and what St Theresa spoke of when she wished she had the opportunity to live in, and which Our Lady of Fatima warned us against. Never in the history of the Catholic Church has the destruction of the faith become so real and evidence abounds all over the earth for the last 40 years. May God have mercy on our sinful souls. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, ideo . . . .

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 6:57 PM By Doyle Hutchinson
"Father McBrien is a wolf in a sheep clothes." Those look more like the clothes of a stockbroker than a sheep...

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 9:30 PM By SCU
How much longer can the Church survive in this poor fractured state she is presently subjected to?

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 10:22 PM By John L. Sillasen
SCU, as Fr. M.P. said, and as I've said, the Church is strong; She has the power and authority of God. One man evangelized all of Europe and the Roman Empire ... one man with an assistant. And people today are whining that the Church is weak ... yeah, right. Solomon conquered thousands, David tens of thousands, St paul countless millions. Men have always said errant things in the name of Christ ... what's new about this? Our jobs are to get holy ... that's how it's done.

Posted Monday, February 11, 2008 11:04 PM By SCU
While your words are comforting, I don't see them as realistically reflecting the current state of the Church. The Catholic Church has no self-awareness anymore, it is fighting itself as well as the outside world. We are a house divided, barely standing. Though the Lord promises us that the Church shall stand until He shall return in glory, we just don't know how she will be standing.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 3:23 AM By Fr. M.P.
SCU, religious liberty, ecumenism and collegiality are all in the Catholic faith, when defined properly. The typical interpretation of those today is not according to Church teaching - as you said the liberals won this round - but they will lose the war. God wins, remember? A short definition of true religious liberty is that you cannot force any religion on anyone, including Catholicism. Why? Because Catholicism is the religion of loving God above all things and loving neighbor as self. You cannot force love. Love is the true choice. True ecumenism is to reach out to others and show them the Catholic faith. Primarily by example, but also as Jesus said, preach the Gospel to the whole earth, and have discussions as required. That doesn't mean you throw out Catholic doctrine in order to "get along" or to find the "least common denominator." True collegiality means that Bishops have significant input to the Church, but never against dogma/doctrine, and never disobeying the Vicar of Christ. Real Bishops are always with and under the Pope, as even Vatican II says. And have faith! Our Lady of La Salette said "Then water and fire will purify the earth and will consume all the works of the pride of men and all will be renewed; God will be served and glorified." The fire is yet to come.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 7:11 AM By John L. Sillasen
SCU, you're not focusing on the actual one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but some pretender. You're looking at the thistle growing in the field of grain; try refocusing on the grain. Have you ever gone to the trouble to visit holy places, such as some monasteries, friaries, parishes, shrines, etc? You sound isolated from the real Church, either by proximity or by some "invisible wall". Go forth and find devout Catholics. If you were in my neck of the woods, I'd suggest where, but why not drive over to Sacramento and the Tridentine Mass there at the FSSP parish (I don't recall its name). There is also a monastery an hour or two south of San Jose that might provide you with some relief. And undoubtedly you can, if you doggedly search, find holy priests around the Bay area. Call it a pilgrimage. Look at Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and if you've got the money and time, then go to one of these shrines ... at least study into them and pray. All God wants is for you to seek Him out.

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:19 PM By Richard Schaefer
What's the matter? Doesn't everyone like the Sunday Hootenanny instead of Mass? I think that, since we now define "full participation" as singing, clapping, folk music, handshaking, back-slapping and liturgical dancing, we should offer beer and pizza instead of the Eucharist. I mean, like let's get with it man! Now, where did I park my VW Flower Power Van?

Posted Tuesday, February 12, 2008 9:04 PM By John L. Sillasen
St Paul discusses this sort of festival atmosphere at Mass.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 5:23 AM By Chris Campbell
As one that normally goes to the TLM, I participate more now than the NO Mass ever allows. Either Mass, you either actively participate and sit there and plan your next meal/trip-something I have heard discussed alot in the pews. The TLM has far more prayers to pray along with the priest. Those that say they didn't understand the TLM were basically lazy, the answers are there, look for them!! Much more reverence and participation at TLM than the sit back and watch the Father Toastmaster NO Mass in most parishes. Mass attedence is at 25% now, 75% pre-V2. Where this heretic been, who knows-then again, he does know, it is his duty to attack and destroy. McBrien, non servium!! Just like he that he serves.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:39 PM By Michel
Thank you so much Lord, for your faithful resisters, were it not for these your faithful children, Holy Mother Church would be in a far more desperate state than she is in at present.

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:46 PM By Janek
Great points Chris, I "participate" much more at the Traditional Latin Mass than at the Broadway show called the Novus Ordo. To kneel, bow, make the sign of the cross, answer the priests prayer, respond to his Dominus Vobiscum, you are truly saying the Mass with the priest as it was intended. This is full participation not hand holding, kiss of peace, singing Protestant songs, clapping, laughing, and all that other rubbish and un-Catholic atrocities! Deo Gratias Benedictus XVI

Posted Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:53 PM By John L. Sillasen
Michel, maybe you're right, but it would be due to the holy Church being persecuted from the outside, not the inside.

Posted Tuesday, April 01, 2008 2:00 PM By John
Fr. McBrien needs our prayers. His clericals must be at the dry cleaners. Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta was quoted the greatest problem in Holy Mother Church is communion in the hand. This abuse is part & parcel of Eucharistic & liturgal abuses which have driven millions out of the church.

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