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Published: September 23, 2009
Orange County Board of Education Opposes 'Harvey Milk Gay Day'
Votes 5-0 to urge Governor Schwarzenegger to veto SB 572
 Sacramento (Press statement from SaveCalifornia.com, September 21) The Orange County Board of Education has voted unanimously to oppose SB 572, "Harvey Milk Gay Day," which is on the governor's desk. SB 572 pressures California public schools to honor the values of homosexual activist Harvey Milk of San Francisco.
In its 5-0 vote on Sept. 17, the Orange County board said, "The addition of commemorative exercises reduces important classroom time in core subject areas. Instructional time is at a premium and students cannot afford to lose quality educational time."
"SB 572's agenda would interfere with our children's education and detract from our schools' academic purpose," said Dr. Ken Williams, a 14-year member of the board. "The governor vetoed this social engineering bill last year and he should veto it again."
 "'Harvey Milk Gay Day' would teach schoolchildren the very controversial values of Harvey Milk," said Randy Thomasson, president of SaveCalifornia.com, a statewide pro-family, pro-child organization. "Based on the historical record of Milk's sordid life, this could include teaching elementary and secondary schoolchildren that adult-child homosexual 'sex' is OK, having multiple sexual relationships at the same time is OK, and telling a very public lie is good if it 'gets you ahead.'"
"The effect of SB 572 upon children as young as kindergarten could be extreme," continued Thomasson. "There's no definition and no limit to the 'suitable commemorative exercises' that children would perform in honor of Harvey Milk. This could include gay-pride parades on campus, cross-dressing exercises, and mock gay weddings. There's nothing prohibiting this and no parental permission either. This instruction, whether taught directly or indirectly, is not what parents want or children need."
Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:59 AM By BJ
Californians need to stand up and be counted rather than allow
the sick madness to reach ever greater heights. Instituting a schools day of ´celebration´ of a sad, misled and misleading life, cannot ever bring anything spiritually good to the state or the country. It is so very, very sad that the state and country have come to this.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:48 AM By St. Christopher
It is too bad that Randy Thomasson cannot be a bishop in CA. And it is too bad the Orange County Board of Education cannot replace the organizing association of American bishops, who are no where to be seen on such issues (instead bickering about those who "dared" to oppose President Obama at Notre Dame, or the scandalous Catholic burial of Sen. Kennedy, or the Obama health care legislation). What courage, and in CA yet. Bravo Mr. Thomasson and bravo Orange County Board of Education.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:34 AM By Laurette Elsberry
Good job, Randy!
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:21 AM By ted
It's absurd to take even one minute to celebrate the life of someone as sick as Milk while the failure to teach basic subjects effectively goes on and on.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:25 PM By Linda
I believe we are now seeing why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah outright after telling Lot to get out of there. Although all sin is bad, the sin of homosexuality seems to result in the spiritual, moral and eventually physical destruction of those involved in it to a much greater degree than other sins. God told Lot to get out of the town (full of active unrepentant Gays) and not look back. Unrepentant homosexuals and lesbians, given any slack, are clearly about promoting their abomination to anyone they can including innocent children. Arise Godly Californians and take back your state!
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:47 PM By Gerry
Tell them to take some time from pep rallys. That will reduce the intrusion on "instructional time."
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:47 PM By GV
This article was obviously written with an anti-gay bias, quoting (even in the title) inaccurate words and claims made by anti-gay hate groups posing as "pro-family."
We need not look even further than the title to see the inaccuracies:
What is being proposed is "Harvey Milk Day." There is no such thing as "Harvey Milk Gay Day." That is an invention by the paranoid "Save California" group.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 12:49 PM By Anon
perhaps the Catholic Church would do better not to throw stones: the Mother Church is a veritable glass house of PEDOPHILES. Leave gay people alone! This is a FREE COUNTRY! Go practice your religion and quit trying to make everyone believe what you believe! Just because YOU think it's right doesn't make it right! And again, why don't you take care of your own problems, i.e., CATHOLIC PRIESTS ABUSING & RAPING CHILDREN.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:07 PM By Life Lady
We Catholics are called to be an example to others. I don't know if Mr. Thomasson is a Catholic, but he would make a very good one if this is how he goes about his day, being a shiney example to others of the Truth. I have to commend him, and bless him at the same time. Good work, sir. Thank you.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:10 PM By Jake Orlando
10% of you holy rollers will have LGBT kids. Instead of shunning them, wouldn't you be glad the LGBT cause is getting at least some recognition.
Pick your battles, rollers, teen suicide in California, I guarantee you, will be down after the Governor signs this into law.
Indoctrination and all these other doomsday scenarios are childish, and they will not happen.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:29 PM By Joe
A lot of pompous catholics. No wonder your religion is in the decline.
You're an example to others alright. Other bigots.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:29 PM By Abeca Christian
That is great news! Now if the rest of California had more balls to oppose this, we wouldn't have to deal with these issues to begin with!
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:36 PM By Mike
Way to go; now all we have to do is be certain to remove lessons about all historical figures who have led sordid lives that we don't wish our children to learn about: Benjamin Franklin, who fathered over 30 illegitimate children; Thomas Jefferson who had an affair with a slave and produced illegitimate offspring through her; Warren Hardings numerous affairs; Dwight Eisenhower's infamous extramarital affair; and the list goes on and on. Let's remove all these American figures, and limit instruction to tether-ball and hopscotch.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:52 PM By Doula Angelita
Let us take a moment and analyze the facts. Who was Harvey Milk? What makes him worthy of having his own day? Why do certain people have their own days in the American culture? The answers, the real answers to these questions, need to be addressed. People like Dr. Martin Luther King, George Washington, Malcolm X, Cesar Chavez, etc. brought a definable issue or issues to the table to help guide us in creating a better America. Was the intention of Harvey Milk to better America? I am not so sure the United States is better off with the LGBT etc. agenda everywhere you turn.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 2:58 PM By Truth
More fear-mongering from the religious right to draw attention away from the real issues.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:07 PM By Ski Ven
Well Anon, since you are blogging here, you must be trying to get other people to believe what you believe. Since homosexual activists are trying to get Harvey Milk Day taught to school children, they must be trying to get other people to believe what they believe. I guess this silence thing is supposed to work one way only. That must be your idea of a free country. BTW, the Church has found out first hand what happens when active homosexuals have access to children. Now they have set their sights on public school children and you seem to be okay with that. No surprise there.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 3:12 PM By MarkF
I spent the better part of yesterday working with concierges from hotels. Most were women, but a small group of them were homosexual men. These guys, all in their 40's or 50's, were full of catty, sexual innuendos and one pranced around, wiggly his hips suggestively like a woman. He made a masochistically unhealthy spectacle of himself. In a one-on-one talk, unprovoked by me at all, he talked about how unhappy his childhood was, how strict his parents were. Then he launched into a diatribe about how the public didn't like this famed (but lousy) neoclassical statue of George Washington because it was really was a homosexual work of art. He talked about the statue's nipple's being so hard and wiggled his tongue like a snake when he talked about it. For this sixteen year old in a middle aged man's body, the statue's neoclassicism was nothing but homosexuality. He went on to talk about the penises of other neoclassical statues. Here it all is...an unhappy childhood, self-castrating feminine behavior, and a hyper-sexualized, prolonged adolescence.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:02 PM By CKNJ
Those that simply hate against gay people are the least charitable and most unchristian people imaginable. The heavy dose of hypocrisy meted out by Catholics after their were found to be riddled with sexual corruption, is astounding. Accept that gay people can be loving relationship-oriented and valuable people in society instead of bleating incessantly about their supposed lack of morality. As for Thomasson, shame on you, you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the conversation... get rid of your bogotry and we can talk again.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:02 PM By MarkF
Jake, Their kids won't turn out to have same-sex attraction if the father's are close to their sons and the mothers are close to their daughters. Unstable families often produce kids with SSA, and this instability and chaos combined with SSA can produce teen suicides, but frankly, I feel that so much of this is just yet another homosexual myth. Strong fathers produce strong boys and that's the best antidote to homosexuality and to suicide. By the way, another good things would be to keep your kids away from sexual predators like Harvey Milk, who according to his gay biographer preferred sex with boys in their late teens.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:56 PM By JLS
What would happen if the kids all brought Twinkies to school that day? *** Joe, would you care to elaborate?
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 5:58 PM By JLS
GV, since God is anti-homosexualist, then that's good enough for me.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:01 PM By JLS
Mike, don't forget King David's affair with Bathsheba after having her husband killed. God restored him so some degree upon his repentance, unlike His judgment on Sodom and Gomorah. It's the repentance that makes the difference; H Milk never repented and in death is milking the public like he milked his victims of his sex perversion.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:04 PM By Joe
The fear and ignorance on display here is mind-boggling. No wonder gays have made incredible strides in equality in the past 2 decades and the Catholic religion, riddled with child molesters, hypocrites and terrified conservatives, is in great decline. I was raised Roman Catholic; you people are not perfect and your descriptions of gays as "sick", "lost" and products of "unstable families" are clueless and you quite clearly have not made a conscious decision to live as Jesus did. Look inward, guys, and realize you have the power to be better people.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:49 PM By lome
THE BOLDNESS OF THE SODOMITES--
"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves." Isaiah 3:9
1. Marches-They no longer sneak around in hiding like roaches and rats. They now march down the main streets of cities and towns carrying signs, declaring their sin as Sodom!
This does not reveal advances made by the Humanist Sodomite liberation movements. It simply reveals how low-down the morals in this nation have plunged.
When Sodomites start marching down main street it is like a house infested with roaches, where no effort is made to control them!
Here is the disgraceful report of some Sodomite marches June 26, 1983:
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New York City, NY 40,000
San Francisco, Cal 200,000
Los Angeles, Cal 90,000
Chicago, Ill. 30,000
Columbus, Ohio 600
Houston, Texas 50,000
2. Newspapers-It is becoming increasingly more obvious that the news media in general is pro-Sodomite!
3. Politics-A few years ago a Sodomite would not dare to run for any office, and no political party would endorse sodomy for votes. The Democratic party has. "Walter F. Mondale cites party committeemen to eliminate all laws, rules and regulations which discriminate againsts individuals on the basis of sexual orientation."
4. Pageants-Charlotte, NC fostered a Miss Sodomite America pageant 9/25/82
5. Churches-The Metropolitan Community Church is a Sodomite denomination!
"The Metropolitan Community Church, a nationwide denomination formed in 1968 by an ex-Pentecostal Holiness minister named Troy Perry ... MCC now boasts 30,000 members in 170 churches." (Greenville News)
The Metropolitan Community Church openly denies that sodomy is a sin!
The boldness of the Sodomites in Judah was a result of and a testimony to the prevailing evil condition of the people in general.
This is the same sequence that we are now witnessing in America.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:57 PM By lome
The Sodomites are out in the fields picking up daisies,while
the unborn are still fighting for thier survival.
The Sodomites are out in the fields picking up daisies,while
lots of underpriveledge people are getting sick by the day for lack of adequate insurance.
These people have nothing to offer to the community ,other than promote their "NOT NORMAl" lifestyles.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:46 PM By Julia
I do not believe that this recognition of Mr. Milk's lifestyle should be celebrated and acknowledged by school children. Whatever children choose to do with their lives once they have reached maturity is there business and no one elses; however, there are many great heros of our country who have yet to recieve acknowledgement of their contributions to the American way of life. Mr. Milk's day will come, but his supporters will have to wait in line.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:55 PM By MarkF
CKNJ, hmmmm...you said that the Church was "riddled with sexual corruption." Let's give this corruption a name, shall we? Homosexuality. 80% abuse was male on male. And this Milk character was into very young boys too, often under 18 years old. I guess to say these facts makes me "bigoted." But I wonder what's the word for someone who abets further sexual abuse of kids by allowing more homosexuals into the priesthood? I have a few words in mind, but none of them are nice.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 8:11 PM By Mark from PA
CKNJ, thanks for speaking the truth. Mark F, my dad is a great guy. He is surely is not unstable and doesn't have SSA as you prefer to call it. I am thankful that I have great parents. The way I am is a matter of biology. Yes, it is true that mothers do have something to do with their sons being gay and some of it may be contributed to hormones in utero and the fact that if a woman has several sons one of them is likely to be gay (later born sons have a bigger chance of being gay). The theories about weak fathers and strong mothers producing homosexual sons that were common in the 1st half of the 20th centuries have been debunked. Some fundamentalist Christians still believe these theories but the medical and psychiatric professions pretty much do not.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:11 PM By JLS
Lots of twinkies coming out to strut their stuff: tiny embers popping out of the fire to scorch the carpet.
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:58 PM By MARKRITE
y'KNOW, THE DAYS AND THE MONTHS HERE IN CALIFORNIA JUST SEEM TO BECOME MORE SURREAL, EVEN DOWNRIGHT WIERD, AS THE 21ST CENTURY PROGRESSES; IS IT SOMETHING IN THE WATER WE DRINK, THE POLLUTED AIR WE BREATHE (ESPECIALLY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA)? OR IS THE LACK OF MORAL COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC JUST ENDEMIC OUT HERE? AND LEADS TO THINGS THAT ARE, MORE AND MORE, PROOF THAT "THE CENTER CANNOT HOLD" WHEN THE MORAL CENTER RAPIDLY VANISHES ALMOST BEFORE OUR EYES.
THERE SHOULD NO MORE BE A "HARVEY MILK GAY DAY" IN CALIFORNIA THAN THERE SHOULD BE A "HUGH HEFNER PROMISCUITY DAY" OR AN "ALFRED KINSEY SEX RESEARCHER DAY"; AND THAT'S FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT ALL THREE WERE (AND ARE) REPREHENSIBLE HUMAN BEINGS WHO GAVE TREMENDOUS BAD EXAMPLE TO THE MASSES. ALL THREE, THROUGH THEIR WRITING, PUBLISHING AND POLITICS, SEDUCED MILLIONS INTO AN EVIL LIFE STYLE. HERE'S HOPING SCHWARZENEGGER DOES THE RIGHT THING AND VETOES THE HARVEY MILK PROPOSITION INTO THE HELL IT DESERVES TO BE IN---GOD BLESS ALL-MARKRITE
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Posted Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:43 PM By Mark
Randy Thomasson should be an embarrassment to Christians everywhere. Making an absurd and illogical statement like, "This could include gay-pride parades on campus, cross-dressing exercises, and mock gay weddings."
I imagine if he'd be so quick to hysterically oppose a bill supporting Dr. Martin Luther King Day, hissing "This could include children in black-face, fried chicken at lunch, and mandatory gangster rap indoctrination."
If sensible Christians and Republicans have any wonder why Obama is in the White House right now, all you have to do is look who you've allowed to hitch their wagon to your train.
It's precisely this type of bigoted, outlandish and inflammatory rhetoric that's losing elections for you.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:02 AM By RR
JLS: Stop insulting Twinkies! Twinkies are good! Homosexuality is not! TeeHee!
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:56 AM By RR
The gays say that they don't have an agenda? Yeah, right. Last night, as I flipped through the stations, there was this show called " Modern Family." It was the most pro-homosexual show I've ever seen. I was shocked and disgusted. I sat and watched the entire show because I wanted to see just how far the pro-sodomites will go. I really had to force myself to watch it even though I so wanted to change the station out of pure disgust. It was the same old garbage that gays spew out. People who don't accept their sinful & sick lifestyle are judgemental, homophobes, close minded, self-rightious...It was sickening to watch. There were two gays who adopted a baby from Vietnam(I think). One was very flambouyant and the other was more serious. I just wanted to gag and shiver. In that show every Commandment of God was broken. In the end everyone accepted this gay couple and their adopted baby. All I could think of was how sad & awful this all is to think that gays are allowed to adopt babies in real life. These babies will be all messed up some day. If they don't end up gay they will have issues & spiritual problems and they will be brainwashed into thinking active homosexuality is normal. This is what the pro-sodomite agenda is all about. They want ALL children to be taught and indoctrinated into thinking that their perversions are normal and God-given. Well, as for me and mine, we will worship God in the Holy Trinity and not the god of homosexuality. I think I speak for many others on here too. We're sick and tired of it! Anyone who can watch that show, week after week, and think it's great; I feel very sorry for you. I had all I could do to get through one episode of it. Keep a watchful eye on our enemies, Good Catholics: there are many, some even on this site. Evil, Evil, Evil and sinful show! A part of me hopes I'm not promoting the show by bringing attention to it, but the devil is out to devour our children. Be on guard!
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:06 AM By RR
Joe: The ignorance of your post @ 6:04 P.M. is mind-boggling. You are "clueless and you quite clearly have not made a conscious decision to live as Jesus did." Jesus did NOT approve of homosexuality and neither should you. If you think homosexuality is O.K. then you are NOT making a conscious decision to live as Jesus did. You are doing what you accused us of doing. Look inward, Joe, and realize you have the power to do the will of God and not your own will.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:41 AM By CKNJ
And YOU, Iome, have nothing but poison and hatred to offer the world. Mark from PA... you are spot on!! The willful misinformation and blatant lies that are used against gay people are out of control. It's astonishing that the Church survives under the weight of the lies and hate that it is fueled by.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:51 AM By St. Christopher
"Markrite" states a number of truths. Certainly the clergy in the Catholic Church is riddled with practicing homosexual priests and bishops, who prey on pre-pubescent boys (no, the sexual crimes area is not principally one regarding"pedophiles"). Harvey Milk is simply an example of living a life consistent with his sexual preferences (which history has shown to include very young men and teens). Analogy to others living immoral lives is completely fair, so the public should not celebrate such self-indulgence. The fact that there has been an infiltration of a spiritual institution like the Church by homosexuals, while those in the ministry commit vile crimes against nature does not make the perpetrators holy or the Church unable to purge itself. Christ certainly loves all sinners, and we all sin; Christ did not embrace sin, however, telling those forgiven to "sin no more." This direction is most often ignored by those who try to absolve their own sexual sins by referring to the sins of others within the the Church. Each are responsible for what they do, and do not do. Christ did not change this.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:53 AM By MarkF
Joe, I used to live a homosexual life, and I was out and incredibly open about it to everyone so it's hard to call me prejudiced. A better word is experienced. I've seen homosexuality from the inside and from the outside. About the tone, and specifically the words that I said, which are so true, that the origin of SSA is in the dynamics of the family, how exactly am I supposed to speak? Can you give me an example of how I should express the truth as I see it and not give offense? The simple fact is that the mere statement that homosexuality is a sin is now branded as "bigoted." The fact is that these days nothing but fawning praise is allowed for homosexuality. As far as Jesus is concerned, his words "Neither do I condemn you. GO AND SIN NO MORE" are what I am living up to.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:36 AM By Ski Ven
Whoa, this place is becoming a comedy club!
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:38 AM By Ski Ven
RR, there is not much on TV nowadays that I would care to watch. I don't have much time to spend watching TV anyhow.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:50 AM By JLS
Julia, your philosophy that every adult is an island is preposterous. The corrupt and depraved pervert Harvey Milk's day has already come and gone ... it's called Judgment Day.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:56 AM By JLS
Well, RR, maybe I'll pick up a pack of Twinkies at the store and pack it with my lunch. I can't think of anything witty to reply with ... you nailed me on this one. Wait! What if when I pull out the Twinkies, some of the people around me leap back and fall over?
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:59 AM By Peter
And yet, MarkF, you continue to condemn, malign and demonize homosexuals everywhere with your sweeping generalizations . . . your "truth" would be less offensive if you were to predicate your assertions with "in my experience", or even better, "Based on my limited exposure to the culture at large . . . ".
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:23 AM By Abeca Christian
BOYCOTT Modern family show and any business that airs commercials during their air time! I am reading a lot of these posts and I can feel the hate coming out from the gay agenda! They have no fear of God in them!
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:33 AM By BJ
Seems that any reference to religious or spiritual values as professed in the Bible,Torah,Koran etc.etc.etc.... is classed as ´right wing´, hate speech etc. Sorry to say, homosexual behavior is not in any way a `political´ matter. Sinful behavior( of whatever type) is sinful behavior and no amount of fractions indicating those who are involved in such behavior now or in the future, will ever change the reality. If 90% of priests, or society were practicing paedofiles it would ofcourse still be evil. The same goes for the practice of `abhorrent´ sexuality of any form; as the Bible etc. tells us very clearly. It´s a question of trying to save souls for eternity, not political posturing, ´left´or `right´.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:31 PM By Harvey
Its great that we talk amongst ourselves, but if you really feel against this deplorable and dispicable SB 572 on the Govenator's desk to honor a wretched filthy gay and lesbian predator and criminal then do something more about it personnally. Get other municipalities to do the same, but even moreso, call the Govenator's office (916-445-2841) yourself and leave a message/vote for him to veto this stinking piece of dispicable legistlation that isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed on.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:34 PM By Harvey
Its great that we talk amongst ourselves, but if you really feel against this deplorable and dispicable SB 572 on the Govenator's desk to honor a wretched filthy gay and lesbian predator and criminal then do something more about it personnally. Get other municipalities to do the same, but even moreso, call the Govenator's office (916-445-2841) yourself and leave a message/vote for him to veto this stinking piece of dispicable legistlation that isn't worth the toilet paper it is printed on.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:00 PM By MarkF
CKNJ, don't you know that what the Church teaches about homosexual relations is just what she has taught since the time of the apostles? I mean, can't we even agree on that? Nothing here is new accept for the organized opposition to this. There's no need to get hysterical and it's really both unfortunate and downright tiresome to keep hearing the same old Hollywood poll-tested words of "hate" and "bigoted." The Church as a whole and myself in particular are not prejudiced. We're experienced with the subject. Can we just agree to disagree? As far as what you said about how the Church can survive with the teaching against homosexuality...well, maybe the best way to see how we think is to frame it in a positive light. The Church is radically pro-life. God is the author of life and the concept of incarnate life is not just biology for us, it's theology. God in Jesus became man, and man was created in the image of God. Our own biology is very special, indeed it is sacred but fallen. Our own sexual relations mirror the love of God for all of us. Now given that, the Church teaches that we should do our best to live our lives in support of life, and so only sexual acts that are open to life are considered to be right. That's why we're opposed to birth control, oral sex and other acts that do not lead to life. Even if you don't agree, can you at least see what I'm saying? On the pastoral level, we all sin. No one is perfect and many Catholics don't live up to this. All the Church is saying is that when we do these things that we have to confess them as a sin, and ask for the grace to grow past them. The Church cannot survive WITHOUT the whole of the teaching on life. I really hope this helps.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:23 PM By Mark from PA
"The simple fact is that the mere statement that homosexuality is a sin is now branded as bigoted." Well, if the shoe fits. I realize that some fundamentalist Protestant sects and even some Catholics regard the homosexual orientation (homosexuality) as a sin. They believe that it is a sin for a person to be gay. However, the Catholic Church does NOT teach this. I think most Catholics believe that gay people are equal in their humanity and their dignity to heterosexual people.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:44 PM By Ima Catholic
What kind of Roman Catholic would dare to disagree with St Paul? Loud and clear from the most accurate english translation of the Roman Catholic Bible (Douay-Rheims) here is his EPSITLE to the Romans 1.24-31: "24 Wherefore, God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness: to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this cause, God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also leaving the natural use of the women have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. 28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient. 29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers. 30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents. 31 Foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. 32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them." Hate the sin; but love the sinner. Out of charity it is our Roman Catholic duty to pray for extermination of this sin and to correct the gays and lesbians to save their souls. Letting them continue with their evil ways and agenda is not doing them a favor, but holding open the doors of hell to their souls, and we don't wish for them to go there, its fanguish and suffering or eternity. The children of Fatima described hell, read it yourself and believe.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:30 PM By Dan
"The way I am is a matter of biology... The theories about weak fathers and strong mothers producing homosexual sons that were common in the 1st half of the 20th centuries have been debunked. Some fundamentalist Christians still believe these theories but the medical and psychiatric professions pretty much do not. " PA -- I guess it depends on which experts you listen to. I cannot find either of your contentions validated by credible data, but then, maybe I haven't found your experts, or found them credible. I think if what you said were truek, NARTH would be out of business. Well, we've jawed over this before. Best wishes regardless.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:47 PM By MarkF
Irma, while I agree with what you're saying, homosexuality is not a problem. It is a symptom. It is a symptom of the breakdown of the family, and that has been caused by taking God out of our lives. And this process has certainly been made worse by the weakening of the faith since the way Vatican II has been implemented. If the Church had held more sway back in the 60's and 70's, we would not have had contraception on demand, no-fault divorce, abortion and laws that treat cohabitation outside of marriage as the equal of marriage. And without all of these we would not being seeing so much homosexuality and so much acceptance of homosexuality. So I guess we start where it all started, with building the faith back up to orthodoxy, with the Latin Mass, with the rosary, Eucharistic adoration, and good solid catechesis. I do think that the time has come and gone for the radicals. They are still around but really, I think we should ignore them except when they try to force their way onto the Church.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:39 PM By Mark from PA
"Out of charity it is our Roman Catholic duty to pray for extermination of this sin." Do you people have any idea how frightening such words sound to gay people? No wonder kids are beaten up and abused when people think like this. Extermination!!!!! This makes me sick. "Hate the sin, but love the sinner." There is no love here. That line makes me sick too. Don't call cruelty and prejudice love. For some people their hell is here on earth having to be beaten up on for who they are and for how God made them.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:50 PM By gravey
Will wonders never cease! Mark from PA, aka WISC, actually got something right! The Church does not consider homosexual orientation a sin. Good. Very good! However, the Church does consider what you do on this website a sin: promoting homosexual acts and the homosexual lifestyle. Public scandal demands public repentance.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:47 PM By victoriag
Mark from PA, I have never heard it put better. "Pray for the extermination of sin". YES!! And those who say such horrific things about our Gay Brothers and Sisters are also committing sin. I admire Mr. Milk because of what he did to achieve rights for those people who are Gay and yet have no one to speak for them. And for all of you who speak hatred against Gays, Our Church is peopled with thousands of Gays. (And I am speaking of the Clergy and Hierarchy.) You just don't want to face it.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:04 PM By Mark from PA
Excuse me Gravey, exactly what homosexual acts have I promoted here? What particular acts have I encouraged? What acts have I bragged about doing? Being homosexual is not a "lifestyle" anymore than being heterosexual is a lifestyle. Do people here understand that a person's sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle"? When I was a teen I was a chaste virgin. That was my "homosexual" lifestyle. Too bad if that was a public scandal. I suppose there were a few people that made fun of me for being gay but I just thought that they were ignorant and to tell you the truth I was so innocent that I really didn't see myself as gay or even have that strong of an understanding of my orientation back then.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:06 PM By JLS
The Church has always taught, regardless of various explanations, that homosexual acts are grave sins. It does not matter whether someone was born with a genetic gay gene or whether some error in nurturing took place, or whether his great great uncle was a thief ... the act of homosexuality is a grave sin. Commit it and you excommunicate yourself from the Church, and separate yourself from union with God.
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Posted Thursday, September 24, 2009 11:13 PM By JLS
MarkF, would you explain to PA that this irrational fear among the homosexual community is really irritating. Why does PA insist on trying to instill this stupid knee wobbling affectation into others? How much do people really enjoy going around being fearful? I get offended by it ... yes, offended by the fear garbage that the gay community keeps generating. They expect to stop fear by generating more of it??? Doesn't that fall into the category of, if one keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results, then they're wacko? Please tell PA to stuff his fear routine into a garbage can and leave it forever.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 12:08 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Mark from PA, Grisha, Peter and other homosexual advocates, ask yourselves what you will say to God on your particular judgement day when He asks you why you rejected his Church's constant teachings and promoted opposition to those teachings!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 2:30 AM By BJ
Mark: Attraction to any particular type of sin is not what `God made´. God didn´t make anyone `to be a sinner´.
We are baptised in the image of God and work our way through the joys, trials and temptations of the physical world. Satan will try very very hard to convince us that whatever we feel and want is our `right´, and anyone who attempts to deny us, whatever the sin we want to partake of, is motivated by misunderstanding,intolerance, backwardness, hate, bigotry etc.etc.Already there is a political grouping in Holland pressing for normalisation of adult-child `relationships´. No doubt they feel that the rejection they are getting just now is motivated by ´lack of understanding´ etc. Eventually, ofcourse the sad truth is that they will probably ´make progress´ because Satan will bring them allies. The process of ´normalisation´ and break down of resistance to clearly sinful behaviour has already begun. What was considered sinful eventually becomes acceptable if enough people or minority yet vocal movements get involved.
However, point blank refusal to accept the word of God in relation to sinful behaviour, and attempts to use the all encompassing ` Merciful Love of God´ to justify and shield unrepented or even admitted sinful behavior is clearly an insult to the Word of God. To brand everyone who tries to lead people back to the Word of God as bigots etc. is elective blindness.
Tough as it may seem for thosw with same sex attractions you either accept the Word of God or reject it. You make the decision...... not God. If people couls move away from the false`teachings´ that it is perfectly normal, they might be able to seek therapy and counselling and freedom from what must be indeed an awful burden. But it has to admitted first!
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 11:09 AM By CKNJ
MarkF, I am with you in all you say, but unfortunately you are dealing here with people that are completely ensconced in their beliefs....
Unlike them, I have no desire to change their beliefs, they can believe the moon is made of cheese, it's their right. HOWEVER if they use their beliefs and religion to trample on my civil rights (as they happily do), then I have a problem with them. Trouble is, they are not happy unless they are meddling in someone else's life and telling someone else how 'wrong' they are, according to THEIR standards and definitions. So, I applaud you for standing up against their bigotry, but trust me, dealing with them is like hitting your head against a wall... it only feels better when you stop. So, my advice is to let them languish in their hypocrisy, hatred and smugness... nothing we do can change their narrow minds. They always resort to lies about us and our lives when they are losing the battle, and will always do so I guess...
We do not need their acceptance or approval, but we do need to fight them at every turn though, when they try to harm us. Hit them in their pocketbooks, is my advice. Politicking from the pulpit flies in the separation of church and state, which they constantly forget. If they insist on doing it, we should campaign to have their church tax exempt status revoked. I would never do this unprovoked, because I believe in live and let live, but the harm the willfully inflict needs to be countered, and snuffed out!
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 12:35 PM By MarkF
CKNJ, so you're in favor of revoking the tax exempt status of those (few) religious groups that advocate for legalized abortion, advocate for same sex marriage, and back in the day, pushed to end segregation? Or are you only in favor for revoking the tax exempt status of those groups who support things that you don't like? The Church is fighting for life. What are you fighting for? Something that is a an illusion and a snare, and eventually leads to death. You may be free to do these things, but you're not free to spread something so destructive to innocent kids (through indoctrination in the schools, through adopting the most vulnerable), and you're not free to stifle our freedom in the name of something that our common history has shown to be unhealthy.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 12:54 PM By GospelTruth
Ok, so there are some mad gay people out there! Is it surprising being brought up in such a world of hatred? But to write them all off is very unjust. Wasn't there something in the Bible against defamation (eg Deuteronomy 22:13-19), but I guess the clever people on here don't read the Bible much. They just spew out hatred based on watching Hannity on Weasel News or by listening to people like Larry Craig or Rev Haggard who are so messed up about their sexuality that they defame gay people until they're caught having sex with them. Then they pretend to be ex-gay.
Jesus definitely never said anything against homosexuality (at least not in the Bible), and there are passages that can be interpreted as being pro-gay: In Matthew 19, he gives his blessing to "eunuchs from birth" (an expression used back then to refer to men who weren’t interested in women, eg gays). He also heals a rich man's "beloved servant", who was probably his lover. And he doesn't do this saying "I'll only heal him if you stop da gay". Instead he praises the man for his faith. The arguments are too complex to summarize in 1500 words, and unfortunately I’m not allowed to give the name of a website, if I understand the rules on here.
Jesus went around telling people not to get too het up about the old Jewish laws and instead to love. Unfortunately, some modern "Christians" ignore this and concentrate on the wacky stuff that had nothing to do with Jesus. They’ve turned the Bible into a Handbook for Hatred.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 2:56 PM By Patrick
Let's face it, some people like informed gays and lesbians whom oppose the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and defy God's Will and offend Him are possibly living in a state of mortal sin, and have not the grace at this time to see His Holy Truth and Light. Satan has covered them in a "black hole". These gay and lesbians and their sympathizers intimidate others and try to purputrate that those following St Paul the Apostle (whom was led by the Holy Ghost in writing all his Epistles) we are the wrong doers. They try to trick us and condemn us that we are evil for trying to convert them into confessing their sins and amending their lives. They try to decieve us that true love is letting them pave their own way to hell. Yes our Lord accepted sinners and spoke to them, but He did not do so to condone the very sins He finds so offensive! He spent those precious moments in their company not to be a hypocrit and approve or participate in those sins; rather our Lord was there because He loved them and wanted more than anything the salvation of their souls. He did so by correcting them, instructing them to sin no more, to confess their sins humbly, do penance, and amend their lives. That is the love that He showed them, to let them go on would not have showed His love. He died a gruelling death to save us; but if we don't heed to His holy Will and Commandments we will not share everlasting life with Him. Souls dying with mortal sins on their souls are destined to the eternal fires of hell whether we want to believe it or not. The Truth is Jesus Christ, and He will not change. There is no reason for Him to do so as He is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus stands behind ancient Roman Catholic Doctrine like St Paul's Epistle's whether you agree or not.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 3:33 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, being gay doesn't excommunicate anyone from the Church. It is all in your head. Tell me one Catholic who has been excommunicated for their homosexuality. It would sure be news to many of the homosexual priests and bishops. Our orientation does not separate us from our union with God. When we receive Our Lord in the most Blessed Sacrament were are also united with God just as you are. God loves us just as much as he does you. We are your brothers and sisters whether you like it or not.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 5:09 PM By JLS
CKNJ, sin has no civil rights. What you mean to say has to do with people trampling on your delusions. When I held false beliefs there came a time when I tried to disspell myself and hoped others would help. This is what the First Amendment is all about, to free up expressions of truth.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 5:25 PM By Bruce
Kenneth, Jesus may not ask them why they rejected His Church's constant teachings and why they promoted opposition to those teachings! He already knows what is in our hearts and minds. Judgement will be swift although, Church teaching is that at the General Judgement all of our sins will be exposed before all of us. I shudder to think how shameful I will be when my sins are exposed before everyone. To avoid the pains of hell and that shameful period my only recourse is to follow God's Will and receive strength from Him to avoid sins of all kinds, especially grave mortal sins through reception of His Sanctifying Grace from the Holy Sacraments provided by Holy Mother the Roman Catholic Church. The primary reason to avoid sin is our love for God, not wishing to offend Him. If we put that thought first when temptation hits us, we are stronger at refuting temptation/sin. The secondary reason to avoid sin is to avoid the consequences, i.e. punishment for atonement (purifying our souls in purgatory in preparation for Heaven) or worse eternal misery in hell. Unfortunately many of us think and avoid sin more for the second reason instead of the more powerful and in-tuned with God first reason. Pray the Rosary for conversion of sinners. There are just to many self-dubbed catholics today that have lost the catholic faith and are cafeteria catholics. Catholicism is accepting and living up to and abiding all God's Truths or facing the consequences!
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 8:35 PM By Mark from PA
Well, JLS, they had better be wary because there is a lot of hatred and prejudice out there. Look at what happened to Matthew Shepard and how many others have been beaten and driven to suicide and yes even murdered. Look at Fred Phelps and his vile bunch. When I first saw that guy at least I felt secure in the belief that at least Catholics weren't like that. Well, newflash, a lot of Catholic despise gay people just as much as Fred and his family. I am waking up to this fact. CKNJ, I hear what you say here but it is just so sad. I know that many see gay people as disordered and subhuman but it hurts. I realize that a lot of people don't understand this.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 11:41 PM By JLS
One of the marks of the gay movement is fear and the other is self interest. "Fear and self interest, as Emanual Kant knew, are likely to be the foundation of the Dominion of the Antichrist" (Josef Pieper). Although fear and self interest appear together in other liberal movements, the condition is most focused in the gay agenda. Why so? Because homosexualism is the end point of sin, the consequence of sin, where the conscience is "seared" so that the soul is almost completely numb to perception of right and wrong, moral or immoral. It is perhaps more frequent to see abortionists turn from their sin than homosexualists, but this is just a guess, as both conditions are self-destructive to the extreme, one more on an individual level and the other on a civilizational level. It is human nature to have to worship something: Those who have sunk to the condition of homosexualist or abortionist have to worship something and what they worship is their reflection in some power figure, such as Obama, who plays to all manner of sin. He is a man of sin, but probably not "the" man of sin ... simply one more prototype to come along.
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Posted Friday, September 25, 2009 11:51 PM By JLS
victoriag, brothers and sisters of the Lord Jesus do not include those who refuse to turn from their sin, such as those who persist in advocating homosexual activity.
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 12:57 PM By Rick DeLano
Please, please, please get our tax exemption revoked!
There is no single action that the secular world could take that would so quickly and effectively separate out the wheat from the chaff in the Catholic Church here in the United States.
Once we lose our tax exemption, there won;'t be any more money for Clown Ministries, the USCCB bureacracy, the bloated chancery payrolls, or hirelings.
We will shortly be down to the Catholics.
We will be much smaller, but then again, we will receive the graces of the sacraments much more powerfully, since we will be better disposed.
Finally, we will have complete freedom to preach the gospel--at least until the satanic forces of antiChrist resort to open persecution....which we know they will.
It is their nature to do so.
At that point, as Belloc has famously said.....it will be morning.
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 5:42 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, you say that President Obama is a man of sin but what President hasn't been a man of sin? We all have our faults and failings and we are all sinners. Didn't someone once say that the Church is a hospital for sinners? If no sinners were welcome in church then the pews would be very empty indeed.
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 6:09 PM By gravey
"I know that many see gay people as disordered..." Yes Mark of PA, aka WISC, including the Catholic Church!
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:21 PM By MarkF
You know, there is a sea change going on now. Many radical, secular and dissenting threads of thought have coalesced in the election of the secular Messiah. All sort of different ideas have come together in the population selecting this man, everything from abortion to homosexuality, raising of the state over the individual, from blaming the US for all the world's problems to kowtowing to heathen despots. All the indoctrination of the radical, atheist media for the past forty years is finally coming to fruition. But at the same time, the public is finally waking up to what's being perpetrated. And this revival has several interwoven threads to it too...from the papacies to JPII and Benedict XVI, to the homeschooling movement and the public's rising anger towards the secular Messiah, may Allah have mercy on his soul. Recently shrill hacks like Nancy Pelolsi and Barney Frank and sincere but misguided folks like Jimmy Carter have labeled all opposition to the secular Messiah as "hate." We keep hearing this word on here against even the most mild statement against homosexuality. We know where this word comes from. It comes from slick Hollywood style polling to figure out what language sells in middle America. It's also a word that is meant to shut down debate. But you know what? Just like this trick is not working when the radical media (NBC, Wash. Post, etc.) uses it on the Tea Party and town hall protesters, it's not working on us. People are starting to wake up to the fact that it is organized homosexuals who are the real haters. That lurking under code words like "peace and justice" is nothing but atheistic socialism. That the corruption is ACORN is not an accident, it is part of a movement that only knows chaos, confusion and destruction. So folks... two things - don't be scared when you're called a hater, or racist or bigoted for standing up for what's right and healthy.
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Posted Saturday, September 26, 2009 10:42 PM By MarkF
And connect the dots, out there are several streams of the same fountain - lax, "peace and justice" Catholic, the NO Mass, NCR magazine, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, weakness in front of Islamic terrorism, the blame America first mentality, growing state power, radical indoctrination of our kids - all of these things come from the same source and have come together in the election of the secular Messiah, may God have mercy on his soul. I think we all knew that this time would be tough on Christians. JP II saw all this coming way back in 1978, "Be not afraid." When they call us names like "hater" for standing up for the family, be not afraid. When we demand an orthodox Church and they say we're injecting politics into the Church, be not afraid. When they call us racists for opposing this man who is admired by Putin, Castro and Gaddafi, be not afraid. The sea change that is happening now is not just the crystalization of destructive, secular ideas. The real sea change is that this country is starting to figure it all out. We're not cowed by the media, we're not passive in the face of Notre Dame honoring the secular Messiah, may God have mercy on his soul, and we're learning just to ignore these aging hippie dissenters in the Church. So call me a hater all you want. I'm not listening.
And lets pray for each other and for the whole Church.
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Posted Sunday, September 27, 2009 6:48 AM By Ken
I am APPALLED by some of the comments written in support of this wicked and Biblically condemned lifestyle!!! I am even more suprised by the lack of understanding of the hetro that is not seeing the anger the so called 'gays' have to ANYONE opposed to supporting their lifestyle. And to not see the agenda they have in recruiting the young as they cannot procreate, to teach the young their lifestyle is yet even more an enigma. THE AGENDA OF THE GAYS IS QUITE CLEAR; if same sex marriage is state supported they can then go into any church that opposes, demand to be married and if the church says no then take them to court, shut down and shut up any opposition. Altho they claim the hetro is filled with hate, the hate is also clear in what is read when someone opposes or even simply won't SUPPORT their lifestyle. I for one will stick with what the WORD OF GOD states...
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Posted Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:55 AM By BJ
Getting to heaven is a personal decision. By our actions and thoughts, we determine our eternity. I doubt that by telling God, the teachings or interpretations of very clear religious instructions are `out of date`, right wing, bigoted, or just wrong, we get dispensation. That doesn´t give anyone the right to be bigoted or fascist ofcourse, and that happens unfortunately. Nevertheless, to try to help people in spiritual need, truths must be told time and time and time again.... however difficult or `uncaring´ that may appear to be. No caring sibling could watch a brother/sister playing with matches and gasoline without feeling the urgent need to keep warning of the folly of such behaviour. It´s not bigotry always.
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Posted Sunday, September 27, 2009 9:09 PM By JLS
PA, the phrase, "man of sin", is a special phrase from Scripture. I worded my post clearly indicating a historic progression and I used the indefinite article "a" instead of the definite article "the": The man of sin will be the final Antichrist. There have been and continue to be many antichrists running amok. I thought you knew this, because you keep telling us that you know what the Church teaches ... You know, PA, I'm beginning to suspect that you know almost nothing of what the Church teaches. You claim to go to Mass and listen to sermons three or four times a day, week after week, etc ... Jesus tells us there are people who have ears to hear but do not hear ... What is it exactly that you hear in all these Masses you attend?
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Posted Sunday, September 27, 2009 10:23 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, what is your issue with the Novus Ordo Mass? I have gone to the Mass in English thousands of times. What is it with you people that have a hatred and disrespect of the Mass in English? And you have the nerve to call others "cafeteria Catholics"? Some of you seem to deify the Pius X Catholics and other groups that hate Vatican II and have a disdain for Catholics who don't think like they do. And you speak of President Obama as a "secular Messiah." What is that all about? He is not a Messiah, just the President. I realize that a lot of people are having issues dealing with a bi-racial African American President but it is 2009 not 1809. Let's get over it please.
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Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 1:50 PM By Paula
When I review some of these blogs, I can't help wonder how difficult it must have been for St John the Baptist. St John preached about the coming of Jesus, but some refused his words. He told his listeners that they were sinners and that they needed to repent because the Way of the Lord was near. (Apparently gay and lesbian lifestyles have been a stainful sin on the human race for centuries, afterall the devil, the source of gay and lesbian lifestyle sins and all other sins has been around since the beginning of Creation. It is confirmed in the Old Testament on how God punished the city of Soddom and Gomorah for their evil gay and lesbian lifestyles and other sins.) No doubt St John the Baptist was met with similar mean, physically threatened, and even violent treatment from sinners who wished to continue offending God and justifying their sins as good deeds, not bad. Those threats didn't stop St John. Although King Herod was curious and fond of St John, sinful Herod's sinister wife objecting to St John's preaching and corrections violently had St John beheaded. Sinners without grace distort and twist the truth. They do whatever they can to deceive innocent people to justify and continue their sinful actions of offending God. It is not these followers of Christ that they should feel threatened by whom wish to rid the world of the gay and lesbian sin, No it is God whom the gay and lesbians should fear as they smite Him with their dispicable behavior and promote homosexuality, even after our Lord died an ignominious death on His cross to save their souls. How tragic it will be for them on their day of death. Love the sinner, hate the sin. By their actions and preaching St John the Baptist and St Paul both believed so and followed the Holy Ghost. Pray for all souls, as we are all sinners.
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Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 5:35 PM By MarkF
JLS said, "You know, PA, I'm beginning to suspect that you know almost nothing of what the Church teaches." Huh????? You a bit slow on the uptake there boy? lol The bigger picture is forty years of lousy catechesis. It's matched by the dumbing down of history in the public schools. We've got Catholics who don't know a thing about the faith, except what really is at the Hallmark card level. And we've got kids and young adults who don't know anything about US history except how horrible America is and how the world would be so much better without us. This is what I was saying above. Several different threads have come together...all the confused, self-hating dribble from the 1960's has come together in a president who blames the US for all the world's problems and thinks that all he has to do is bow and scrape and that people like Putin and nations like Iran will fall all over themselves in love with him. Man, thank God for Pope Benedict. Has anyone here read his book "Truth and Tolerance?" He talks about the danger of relativism as the real threat to the west, not Islamic terrorism. He has brought back evangelism, a horror to the so-called multiculturalists who think all religions are equal. He's defied the secular intelligentsia by boldly saying that Galileo was not as right as he thought; in a boundless universe it is equally true that the earth is the center of the universe as it is the sun. And he's shocked the dissenters by writing the great catechism that John Paul II published, thus giving the faithful a standard to hold our local dissenters up to. To be a bit bold here JLS...why listen anymore to what dissenters say? We know what they'll say. On one level it is a bit amusing, but really, we've heard it all before. I think the time is here to stop feeling like we're in the minority where we have to challenge them at each step. The time has come to just ignore them. As you said, "ears but cannot hear."
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Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 5:42 PM By MarkF
Do you know what I'm saying about why I'm saying that we should ignore the dissenters? I think in the past we had to, just like we had to write letters to the crazy, anti-American newspapers when they'd say crazy things. But just like those newspapers are no longer worth responding to on each and every thing, the dissenters in the Church are increasingly irrelevant. We're moving from a time of being a minority that had to fight each step to being a majority that has to lead. And we don't lead others by sniping with childish (and boy does that word fit) dissenters. Do you see what I mean? Their time has come and gone and we don't need to be defensive any more. It's time to just move on. I think when we do we'll find new roles for our evangelism, like reaching to those out there who do have ears and who will listen.
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Posted Monday, September 28, 2009 8:35 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, I have said that I go to Mass 2 or 3 times a week, not 3 or 4 times a day, you are just poking fun here. And no, I have never heard a sermon about the man of sin being the final antichrist and have never heard a priest talk about antichrists running amok. But I did hear two excellent sermons (on Saturday evening and also Sunday evening) on this weeks liturgical readings. The Mass from last night was particularly moving to me but it probably wouldn't have done anything for you as it was in English and the priest would surely have been too progressive for you. I actually went to confession after Mass which was very beneficial to me.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 12:34 AM By Kenneth M. Fisher
Life Lady,
I know Randy personally, and I do not believe he is a Catholic, he probably is an Evangelical. He is a fine, courageous young man, and you are right, he would make a great and true Catholic.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:55 AM By Thomas B
No the Roman Catholic Church does not officially approve of homosexuality. Some sympathetic/homosexual ministers have held their gay masses outside of Roman Catholic doctrine, but that doesn't mean homosexuallity is accepted. The burden of proof that homosexuallity is not offensive to God and not a sin rests on the shoulders of those whom defy God's Word! These hypcrits, gay and lesbians (G&L) and their sympathizers need to stop trying to sway 98% of the Roman Catholics whom disagree with their sinful ways and listen to God's Holy Word instead. It would be better for G&L to depart Holy Mother the Church if they wish to continue to pursue with their evil motives than to drag Holy Mother the Church down into the abyss of hell itself. The G&L whom are ChINOs (Catholic in name only) have infiltrated the remaining seminaries and convents. Sadly some lay don't trust the clergy in general on account of all the sexual abuse scandals and cover-ups, and this has led to further erosion and loss of the Catholic Faith. No thanks to Vatican II and its aftermath of liberalism where the sanctifying graces vanished and the strength to be holy in the clergy and lay members is weak. Unfortuantely due to the loss of the faith in the greater Catholic population (due to the devil's work) the seminaries opened their doors to heterosexuals and homosexuals alike to salvage some numbers of eroding vocations. The seminaries failed in their responsibility to filter out those young men unfit for the priesthood, i.e. the gays and those not Christ-like. Likewise the G&L have infiltrated our state leadership positions, public school boards and teaching positions and are out to orientate our innocent children to accepting and participating in their evil sinful lifestyles. This technique of orientating innocent children to eventually sway the population is documented. The Nazis practised it in the 1930s and 1940s. Our Lord said in His gospels 'Woe to thee, for it would be better to hang a millstone around one's neck and drown in the sea, than to mislead the least of these (mainly children) into sin'. Misleading of our children is occuring daily under our noses and we wonder what is
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:46 AM By JLS
MarkF, you were quick on that one !!! Yeah, guess I was creating a theoretical context for PA. But on the other hand, I had to swim upstream through all sorts of paganism, protestantism, and liberal Catholicism until I found the treasure trove of the Magisterium. I was not satisfied with half truths, nonsense, and such fluff. There was always, as the Church teaches, enough truth that I could find my way ... Maybe it is merely a case of accute hearing which not everyone is blessed with. I mean, there are some Scriptures in the missal that PA claims to be reading in English. The version of English doen't not matter that much; even before I was Catholic I could use the Jehovah's Witness "Bible" to defeat their own doctrines ... It does not take much truth to carry one to victory ... enough can be found in a grain of mustard seed to win salvation ... so why isn't PA getting there? Yes, obviously he is spending all his time wandering into pasteurs owned by the world, the flesh and the devil, where the order of the day is the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life: Why doesn't PA follow Jesus? Yes, his catechesis is not only weak but frought with extreme error: But why has he bought into it? Why does one believe a lie instead of the truth? Is it because he is told to do so? Jesus gives us unique and individual personalities ... with free will ... Those without faith do not know or act on this intrinsic aspect of human nature (which is actuated by the Sacraments). Notice how PA never depicts himself individually? He sees himself as part of a vague movement of men with sexual practices that lead them astray from Christ. The only true individuation comes from following Christ. Notice that PA has no sense of this, nor does Grisha ... who also purports himself as an aspect of a vague society heavy on the homosexualist theme. I've been haranguing Grisha for a long time to step out of it and move into the freedom of Christ.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:05 AM By Ski Ven
Oh yeah, Mark from PA, I go to Mass more than you do and I uphold what the Church teaches. Stop trying to act like you're better than us.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:26 AM By Harvey
Paula, I appreciate your thoughts about the challenges St John the Baptist was faced with in trying to convert stubborn to their own will sinners. Remember what St Paul said in one of his Epistles (maybe to Timothy) explaining his experiences in trying to convert stubborn heathens and Jews to christianity, that if their community would not accept the Word of the Lord, than they would just shake the dust from their sandals and walk away. There are those that are so stubborn, and into their sinful self-perceived pleasures, they don't wish to please God, so they don't obey Him. There is no use trying to change them anymore. The only way to their possible conversion is through prayer, that the Holy Ghost will come to them, open their minds and soften up their hearts to hear God's Word, Will, and be obedient to Him. We all need to pray the rosary fervently and humbly daily to save these suffering souls. Their lifestyle choice is not caused by a disease, physical or mental reasons. Homosexuality is caused by the devil leading sinners into accepting and participating in these sinful unnatural acts, deceiving them that their behavior is acceptable, encourageing them to help Satan draw more into sin, and blaming God for themselves being homosexual, a lifestyle choice. God does not create evil, only good! The devil stirs up the evil! Pray to our Lady Blessed Mother: August Queen of Heaven, sovereign mystress of the Angels whom did receive from the beginning the mission and the power to crush the serpents head, we beseech thee to send Thy holy Angels that under Thy command and by Thy power they may pursue the evil spirits, encounter them on everyside resist their bold attacks and drive them hence into the abyss of woe. Most Holy Mother, send Thy Angels to help and defend us. All ye holy Angels and Archangels help and defend us. Oh good and tender Mother, though shalt ever be our love and our hope, holy Angels and Archangels keep and defend us. Amen.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:22 PM By JLS
When people claim that they don't follow the rules laid down by Jesus Christ, because it is genetic or whatever, what they are in effect saying is that the Holy Ghost does not have the power or authority to help them. This is considerable affront to God, and is born of extreme vanity.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 3:55 PM By Mark from PA
Harvey, homosexuality is not caused by the devil. Show me one study that shows that. Show me one Catholic document that shows that the homosexuall orientation is caused by the devil. Do you people think that demonizing gay people in opposition to the teachings of the Church is Christian? I read Thomas' comments here. It was surely eye opening. I am coming more and more to understand how many Catholics despise gay people. You may hate us all you want but please do not spread the lies that our orientation is from the devil. This is NOT Catholic teaching. I thought that we were all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I guess for many this does not include the "disordered" sub-humans. It is a terrible thing to take away a person's humanity.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:34 PM By JLS
PA, you are flat out claiming that God does not have as much power or authority over homosexuality as you do.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:00 PM By Mark from PA
"Notice how PA never depicts himself individually." Are your kidding here, JLS, I have shared a lot about myself as an individual. Did you read what I wrote about chastity in the other discussion? Lust is not a big issue for me personally. "Why doesn't PA follow Jesus?" Well, JLS, I have been for over 40 years. I just got back from Mass an hour ago and I received Jesus into my heart so Jesus is with me right now. When I received the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, I joined in His perfection. Mark F, my forty years of lousy catechesis was probably better than what you were doing for most of those forty years. Sorry to be blunt here. In truth, my 8th and 11 grade religion classes were excellent and spirit filled. My 10th and 12th grade religion classes were pretty much a waste. Over these 40 years, I have heard many, many excellent sermons in going to Mass every Sunday. So I have been learning all through these 40 years. Perhaps you haven't heard a lot of good sermons over the last 40 years, Mark, but I have. I think that the Liturgy of the Word and the sermons of the priest are part of the ongoing catechesis of all Catholics.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:29 PM By MarkF
Harvey, that was Jesus in Matt 10:14 who told his disciples not to waste their time on people who are not listening to them, but to shake the dust of the town off their sandals. I do agree that we should offer up our Mass intentions and the rosary for the conversion of sinners. But I think you perhaps were a bit too harsh only on all homosexuals. I do think that homosexuality does stem largely from psychological problems in a person's development. In a sense you're very right, all sin comes from the devil, either directly or indirectly. But I think you are perhaps overly censorious towards just people with SSA. We're all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. I don't have so much of a problem with individuals who struggle in private to conform their behavior with Christ. But I do think think that you're right that organized homosexuality has something of the demonic about it. There is of course a scale of the demonic in our lives. We all have temptations - anger, over eating, laziness, and no one can tell if this is demonic or just human weakness (which is the result of the sin of Adam and Eve who were tempted by the devil). At the far end of the scale is full blown demonic possession. My experience is that the average person with SSA is a person who is severely tempted. But my experience is also that those people who are deeply into homosexuality, or those radicals who are out to spread homosexuality in the universities, Church and in society are deeply influenced by something demonic. Homosexuality can either be a temptation or a royal road to hell. The average person with SSA may be able to worked with, and I know several who are in the Church who know that what they're doing is wrong but feel trapped. The others, the professional homosexuals, the radicals, well yes, they are too influenced by evil to for us mere mortals to deal with. We can pray for them but we also have to defend ourselves from their influence.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:52 PM By JLS
PA, the devil is at the root of evil. Homosexuality is the consequence of evil. Thus, homosexuality is driven by the devil. Did you know, PA, that rational thought, such as I just presented an example of, is Magisterial? We are ordained by our nature and aided by God's towards reason ... you need to step up to this level.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:04 PM By MarkF
JLS, you ask a tough question there. Maybe you have the answer already in your own life. Why did you not hear the gospel all those years? Why did you go through all those phases from paganism to Protestantism? Maybe this will help answer your question. I grew up with a lot of confusion, neglect and abuse. That’s the common origin of SSA. A kid gets a weakened sense of his own masculinity and begins to hate himself for it. So external masculinity becomes a sexualized object as a solution. But along with this comes a deep sense of shame and that combined with the original self doubt becomes a toxic brew. This is what a closet case is all about, full of lust, loneliness and self-hatred. It’s an unstable combination and it can’t last. Something has to give. And self hatred is the key. Let me make an analogy. Suppose someone dresses like a slob and that this originates from a self of self hatred. But they have so much self hatred that they can’t abide it when someone tells them they’re dressing like a slob. If they allowed themselves to hear the idea that they’re dressing like a slob, they’d take that as confirmation that they’re a horrible person all along and would spiral into self hatred. Now suppose this person “comes out” and decides that his manner of dressing is not a problem but it is all of us who have the problem for thinking he’s dressed like a slob. This person still won’t abide any talk about his manner of dressing that is not in total approval, but instead of going into a spiral of self hatred, he may either lash out the rest of the world, or may say that you think all sorts of horrible things about him, when really you’re just talking about his manner of dressing. So the self hatred is still there but displaced. To get back to your question, I think that psychology can be a block to the gospel. Some people are just not ready to accept the gospel because it gets twisted around inside their own head into something it’s not.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:05 PM By MarkF
I honestly don’t know how to evaluate a person like that’s conscience. I do know that we can’t do much for them except to pray and that their views should be kept out of the Church.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:59 PM By Abeca Christian
The devil wants people to sin, to turn away from God. The devil brings in the temptations, he knows people's weaknesses and provokes them, all man has to do is participate in the temptations set before him. So therefore we can safely(Holy Scripture verifies this and so does the church) say that homosexual disorders are caused by sin, temptations coming from the evil one and all man has to do is fall into the trap, the lies of the devil, that is very well shown in the old testament and the new testament of God's holy word in holy Scripture. I find it very stupid to ask for proof of that especially when men ask for proof if God exists. What little faith one can have when they lean onto their own understanding, that is why we are called Christians, because we walk by faith.
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Posted Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:09 PM By Abeca Christian
One more thing, the act of homosexualism (homosexuality) is a terrible act on a persons humanity, it degrades the person, the very act is not only sinful and immortal but it takes away the dignity of the human spirit, it's character and it disorders the very image that God has intended for the soul, human and spirit. No one with love of human dignity will ever hate any human soul but anyone with faith and love of God and commandments, will definitely despise all immortal sins that will guarantee that person to go straight to hell if they refuse to have a contrite heart. We mostly feel utter sadness for such souls lost in Gehenna.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:20 AM By Peter
Mark from PA - I think I have come to the realization that Christians (and Catholics, in particular) MUST attribute the origins of homosexuality to something other than "natural" - i.e. external to human nature: "a choice", "of the devil", the "result of original sin" - because to consider it natural and innate (no less and no more than heterosexuality) would be to acknowledge that church teachings regarding human sexuality (i.e. the procreative intent supported and preserved by the sacrament of marriage) is fundamentally flawed. That is why you keep getting ragged on by your Catholic peers . . . you express the obvious truth that homosexuality is indeed a naturally occurring variation on the continuum of human sexuality; a secular truth which is irreconcilable with and indirect opposition to Catholic dogmatic "truth" (non-cafeteria) on the matter. I agree - it seems some Catholics/Christians do seem to genuinely despise gay people, and unfortunately, this also provides a convenient excuse to vent prejudices and promote misinformation.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 8:58 AM By Abeca Christian
Peter is the perfect example of someone who bought the lie of the devil. He is guided by his own passions and sinful disorder! His last post holds no water because there is no scientific facts to back up his opinions on homosexuality! His words are only man made and not from God! We also don't need scientific proof either because God has revealed his truths to his faithful people. Sinners we are but because we have the desire to obey God, we understand that Peter is in grave error! Someone pray him some spiritual glasses coming from God's graces to help him see because right now he is 100% spiritually blinded! Another thing, Catholics are Christians! Goes to show you how ignorant one is, if one is referring to a Non Catholic Christian say so by using the same words non- catholic Christians but if you are referring to a Catholic Christian then just say Christian, Catholic or Catholic Christian! Capish!
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:22 AM By Peter
Abeca Christian - Thanks for the example; that's exactly what I was referring to in my post to Mark from PA. Also, I do realize that all Catholics are Christians, but all Christians are not Catholics, thus I've made the distinction so as not to offend non-Catholic Christians (many of whom consider Catholicism to be a false religion and/or a cult.)
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:19 PM By Ski Ven
Mark from PA, Peter made it pretty clear that homosexual beliefs and Catholic beliefs are irreconcilable. Why you claim to believe in both is beyond me.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 1:44 PM By The Truth Hurts
Abecca Christian, Peter is demonstrating his Faustian-like skills of supporting another fellow minion named Mark from PA. We all know that Mark from PA prefers to *act naive* and also devotedly serve the homosexual agenda. The Faust of the early Faust books is irrevocably damned because he prefers human knowledge over Divine knowledge. Peter finds comfort in supporting someone who has also rejected God's Eternal Truths for earthly passions that have reduced them to the level of behaving as if they were merely instinctual animals. We do know that God's desire for those who have fallen prey to their own basic passions is to seek His Will for their lives. The pro-homosexual agenda posters on this site are sadly mistaken to think that they are fooling God or anyone else. Their fallen team's sole requirement for membership relies on being defiant to God's Law and joining the society for the preservation of the right to commit mortal sin. They have announced to the readers that they have no allegiance to God. Their singular focus and allegiance is to their flesh.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 2:44 PM By Mark from PA
Thanks, Peter, yes I agree. It bears repeating, "Homosexuality is indeed a naturally occurring variation on the continuum of human sexuality." However, I do not believe that this is irreconcilable with and in direct opposition to Catholic dogmatic truth because religious truth and scienfic truth cannot be in opposition to each other. If something is scientifically true the Church can't really deny it. The continum of human sexuality was explained to me by a Catholic counselor. It was explained that it was common scientific knowledge.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 3:25 PM By Mark from PA
Ski Ven, there is no such thing as homosexual beliefs. It is an orientation. Gay people belong to many different faiths. Mark F, in regard to your post of 9/29. 10:04 PM. You speak of what a closet case is all about. Well, I am in the closet so let me comment here. In regard to self-hatred. I don't feel that I really have a lot of self-hatred. Reasons for this are that I have great parents and I mostly had good school experiences. In high school I was treated with respect by most people so Catholic school was a good choice for me. I think my Catholic education helped me. I'm not really full of lust either. When the other kids in high school were out dating I was home reading and studying. I thought sex was reserved for marriage. But I think that I was often lonely in high school, not so much in college. I'm not really all that lonely now as I don't have enough time to be lonely. You speak of people with SSA being severely tempted but surely a lot of heterosexual people are a lot more tempted than I am. Some of the things people do, I just have to shake my head. But we are all individuals, all straight people don't fit one mold and all gay people don't either.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:05 PM By JLS
Ski Ven, it is really very easy to understand how PA can be both Catholic and homosexual activist at the same time. Years ago an old friend explained to me that one of his daughters was both Catholic and Buddhist (religiously speaking, since his family is completely anglo/celt). After all the US now has a president who is not only Christian/socialist, communist, and Muslim but Catholic also.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:13 PM By JLS
PA is correct in that there are no homsexual beliefs ... they do not believe that the apple was eaten ... even though they are working with what is left of it.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:37 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, when did I ever say that I was an activist? I am just expressing my opinions here. Just because I am a certain orientation does not make me an activist.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 6:43 PM By MarkF
JLS, the answer is simple. All these people belong to the FutureChurch, the new secular religion that combines a bland do-goodism with a liberal Protestant / Unitarianism and big state politics. The religion of statism / socialism is one wing of it. The eco-religion of Gaia is another. The religion of homosexuality is yet another wing. What they all have in common is contempt for traditional Christianity, the Bible, and those who believe in it. Some of the followers of the new religion have totally made the break from their old religious groups. Other are still more or less in their old groups trying to subvert them from within. Yet when push comes to shove, when they are asked to chose between Sacred Tradition and the secular oracles of Future Church, their loyalties are always with Future Church. One last thing these groups have in common is that they are running scared. Their arguments are falling flat and the only weapon they have to call decent, average Americans names like "bigoted" and "hater." Notice how this trick first started in the religion of homosexuality but now has been picked up by its sister religion, the new state religion of Obama-ism. Right now I'm listening to the fear mongers in the media say that all opposition to the Secular Messiah, may Allah have mercy on his soul, is just hatred and that we're all about to assassinate the president, instigate a Rwanda like genocide (see Bette Midler) and have a military coup (Gore Vidal). Don't be afraid. This is the loud, dying gasp of 1960's radicalism. Soon Fr. McBrien, Sr. Joan, Gore Vidal, the NY Times, Wash. Post will all be gone. I truly believe that the restored Church will have an unparalleled leadership role in restoring America. This is why I think it's not worth it to snipe with childish dissenters anymore. Instead we need to reach out to the victims of this sick culture and be prepared for leadership in the Church and society.
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Posted Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:20 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, you need to go to Beliefnet and take the survey on "What Kind of a Catholic Am I?" It is very interesting. I have actually taken this a couple of times. They ask you questions and by answering what you believe they tell you what kind of a Catholic you are. It turns out that I am a traditional (Rosary) Catholic according to the responses that I gave. I wonder what you would be. Wouldn't it be funny if I actually rated as more traditional a Catholic than you?
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 12:14 AM By Abeca Christian
JlS lol. I love your sense of humor! The apple was not eaten, oh yes, I understand what you mean, LOL. The Truth Hurts your observations are right on!
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 4:45 AM By Mark from PA
Peter, I think you need to realize that no Catholic teaching says that the homosexual orientation is from the devil. Actual Catholic teaching is that homosexual persons are to be treated with respect and compassion and not discriminated against. I never heard of this devil stuff until a couple of years ago I happened across a Sedevacantist Site. These people claimed that homosexuality was from the devil. Sedevacantists are a break-away sect from the Catholic Church and do not accept the Pope or priests ordained in the last 40 years. Believing that homosexuality is from the devil is dangerous in my opinion because some of these people are at risk of turning verbal violence against gay people to physical violence. In their twisted minds some may think that by beating and abusing gay people they are fighting the devil. This is quite scary.
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 7:46 AM By Peter
Mark from PA - I agree with you 100%. But the problem, as I see it, is that while Catholic teaching on sexual (homosexual) orientation is silent, the fact that Catholic teaching on human sexuality is purely hetero-centric (i.e. in it's position that the procreative function is the soul purpose of human sexuality RE: Genesis), INFERS that anything (actions) not supporting this “God-intended” purpose is therefore foreign to human nature (by design). To suggest that the nature of human sexuality goes beyond (or should go beyond) a procreative intent is to suggest that the church teaching regarding human sexuality is fundamentally flawed. Thus is order to reconcile the very fact that homosexuality exists at all – a fact that is inconsistent with Genesis and therefore the tenets of the faith – it is understandable why “true” Catholics MUST attribute the origins of homosexuality to something other than "natural" - i.e. external to human nature: "a choice", "of the devil", the "result of original sin.” Granted, it seems these “other origins” are not supported by an overt magisterial position, but it does appear that they have been validated through other tenets of the faith. Certainly I am not suggesting that this is true; indeed just the opposite. But from a Catholic perspective – and I am not faulting anyone for this - I see this as the only viable conclusion if one chooses to adhere to the core tenets of the faith. Of course, I’m with you; in this context I’d prefer to be understood at the product of “choice” rather than “of the devil”.
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 8:59 AM By Abeca Christian
Mark from PA you are no bible scholar, so your opinions are only opinions sir! Now let me make this clear, the bible and church go hand in hand when it comes to Catholic teachings! Capish!
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:13 AM By Ski Ven
Peter, you almost exposed your fellow minion. Lucky for him he managed to repair the situation. I think most people will buy what he said. You better be more careful, next time.
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 4:11 PM By JLS
PA, if you live your life according to how other people define you, then that is sad. Look, I know you hold a great deal of respect for statistics that attempt to explore and define social things including people, and that again is a sad thing for a Christian. You should look to Jesus for your identity.
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:51 PM By Mark from PA
Yes, JLS and Jesus never said one word against homosexuality, not one word. Jesus came for ALL. When we receive the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist, He becomes part of us all, white, black, gay, straight, all those who love Him and share in His sacrifice. We are one in Christ.
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Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 9:03 PM By MarkF
Peter, I think that you do see what the Church teaches clearly even if you don't agree with it, and though you don't come out and say it explicitly, you do seem to realize that the homosexual movement is incompatible with Christianity. I want to make sure that you and I understand what each other believes. We believe that man was ordained to live a life that we can only glimpse but cannot achieve in this life. We believe that we start with the perfectly created couple who did not know about violence, lying, greed, lust, etc., including homosexual behavior or any other sin. After the fall, man's nature was corrupted and we now all know the full range of sin capable of man. And we live in a world of all sorts of behaviors, so in that sense we can say that homosexual behavior is part of the human experience. But in that same sense we'd have to say that murder, theft and adultery are also as natural because these behaviors are also all around us. But this tendency to just list behaviors does not get us anywhere. It does not add any knowledge. To say that something exists in the world does not tell us if that thing is good or bad, right or wrong. You think that the Church cannot account for homosexuality when the truth is just that you disagree with her. Where we disagree is that your starting point and your standard is man as he is here and now. You're saying that if humans do it now, then it must be natural. The Church starts with that person who was made in the image and likeness of God originally and who still is inside of you and me, though darkened. But you are very right when you say that Christianity, and Judaism for that matter too, cannot exist with the homosexual ideology. Notice is said the homosexual ideology, not with homosexual behavior. The behavior fits in perfectly with Christianity. It is like any other sin the gateway for repentance and for finally knowing Christ, who is the new Adam, the man who we were all created to be like.
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Posted Friday, October 02, 2009 1:01 AM By JLS
Peter, the reason for the Scripture being silent on homosexual orientation is because there is no such thing ... what exists are homosexual sins, committed as the will chooses. It is not an orientation but a decision to engage in unnatural deviant depraved and demented sexual activity.
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Posted Friday, October 02, 2009 6:15 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, well, I guess you also believe that there is such a thing as homosexual orientation. "Political Payback, 10/2, 4:16 PM." "Why are you homosexual people always worried about having violence done to you?" I am quoting you.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 6:15 AM By RR
Mark from PA: Christ did not need words to destroy Sodom and Gemorrah. His actions spoke louder than words. Also, just because some sins are not in scripture or the Bible doesn't mean it is not a sin. It doesn't say in the Bible to go to Mass every Sunday, but the Church teaches that it is mortally sinful to miss Mass on Sunday without a good reason. I could go on and on with examples, but you should get the point. Christ lets His will known through the Pope through Church teachings. You do believe in the Pope, don't you?
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 10:25 AM By Mark from PA
RR, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was not in the New Testament. It was in Genesis and happened around 3000 BC or earlier. As in Before Christ. So what actions of Christ are you talking about here?
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 1:01 PM By Abeca Christian
Mark from PA you sound like a fool! Just because something happened way before Christ, it does not mean that Christ never existed and it does not mean His commandments do not exist! What planet do you live on or are you smoking something heavy that only the Devil knows about. In the old testament people told of Christ's coming, God has always existed! Therefore Sodom and Gomorrah are a perfect warning of the evils of homosexuality. The disorder produced by sin or produced by sin afflicted on another!!
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 1:27 PM By Peter
Aren't the ten commandments in the bible? I.e Keep holy the Lords day?
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 1:53 PM By RR
Mark from PA: I should have written God, not Christ, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Sorry, my mistake. I use Christ's name a lot when I refer to God. I shouldn't have in this situation. What I was trying to say was that just because a sin isn't mentioned in the Bible it doesn't mean it isn't a sin. There are many, many Church teachings that God has revealed that are not in the Bible; such as what I said in my prior post about going to Church on Sunday. It is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday according to the Catholic Church, but it is not in the Bible. It is Chruch teaching that needs to be obeyed just like homosexual sex is not to be had because it is against Church teaching. God reveals things through the Pope and we need to do what the Pope says and we need to practice the teachings and truths of the Church. We can't pick and choose teachings of the Church that we want to believe or not. The Pope and the Catholic Church teachings say homosexual sex acts are a grave matter. So why do you consistently condone and support them when the Church says it's wrong? The Church teaches that homosexual sex is wrong, so why is it that you support and condone it? You always claim that homosexuality is an orientation and homosexuals are born that way. Let's say you are right, even though I don't agree. But let's say homosexuality is an orientation and that homosexuals were born that way. Well, the Church says it is gravely wrong to have homosexual sex. So, homosexuals still have to do what the Church says and NOT have homosexual sex. They should accept then that God made them that way and live a chaste life. There is absolutely NO excuse for homosexual sex. Plain and simple; homosexual sin will always be mortally sinful and the Catholic Church will never allow it. It is deviant!
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 2:49 PM By Mark from PA
RR, thank you for the clarification. By now you should know that I am not promoting any particular sexual activity here. Also, you know that I consider some sexual acts to be gravely sinful but do not believe that homosexual sin is always mortally sinful. You say that they Catholic Church will never allow it but sadly in the past the Catholic Church did allow certain things that they never should have allowed. Yes, it is true that all people should try to live a chaste life according to their state in life.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 2:53 PM By Mark from PA
RR, I have great respect for Pope Benedict XVI. I believe that he is a good and holy man. I don't agree with him 100% on everything but I realize that we grew up in different times and in a different atmosphere. I liked Pope John Paul II very much. I have read many books about him. When I was a young person I saw him and attended the Mass that he said in Philadelphia. I think he was a great man. I have been in discussion on other sites where people didn't like Pope John Paul II because they thought that he was too conservative so sometimes I was criticized for my views but mostly the people respected my conservatism.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 3:54 PM By JLS
PA, Jesus in the Gospel talks about Sodom and Gomorrah. Once again you must have been day dreaming when you read that part.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 3:58 PM By JLS
PA, Christ existed before He was born ... Does your Bible reading consist of putting a Bible cover over some other book to make others think you're reading Scripture? I mean, you get Bible facts wrong and all messed up all the time, PA.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 4:09 PM By Abeca Christian
MarkF was right, we just keep wasting our words on Mark from PA. He is spiritually blind and he still stands by homosexual lies. People still casting their pearls onto swine?
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 5:02 PM By Anne T.
We have been ALL THROUGH this before. Jesus Christ did not say anything about sodomy, just as he did not say anthing about incest or fornication. He did not need to because it was well known by pious and well-taught Jews of Christ's time and Christ's followers that such behavior was a breakage of the Commandment against adultery. He told His followers "to keep the Commandments," meaning the moral laws of the Old Testament and everything pertaining to it. His followers knew all about the Torah and how it forbade such things. All you have to do is read their writings in the New Testament, and you will know that. No pious Jew at that time would have even thought of engaging in such activity, as the Conservative Jewish columnist, Don Frager and other Conservative and Orthodox Jewish people of today will tell you. Only secular, non-practicing or liberal (cafeteria) Jews and Christians today will tell you it is all right.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 6:21 PM By MarkF
RR, Christ, the second person of the Trinity is mentioned a lot in the Old Testament. He is referred to as the Word of God, or the Wisdom of God. This concept of the Word of God was not something that originally was revealed to Israel through Moses. Rather the concept developed later and in stages. Let me quote from the wonderful Jerusalem Bible (1966 edition) "The concept of a personified wisdom, a mere literary device in Proverbs 14:1, was further developed in the post-exilic period, when polytheism was no longer a threat to true religion. In Job 28 and Baruch 3:9-4:4, wisdom is represented as a thing distinct from God and man, desirable in itself; in Proverbs 1:20-23, 3:16-19, and 8 and 9 it is represented as a person. Here Wisdom herself reveals her origin (created before all other creatures, vv. 22-26), the active part she plays in the creation, vv. 27-30, and the function she discharges among men in leading them to God, vv. 31, 35-35. This doctrine will be further developed in Sirach: Sirach 1:1-10 recalls Job 28, but Sirach 4:11-19; 14:20-15:10 and especially 24:1-29 are in line with Proverbs 8. Wisdom is personified in all these texts but, as in the case of the Word and the Spirit, it is hard to discern how much is poetic device, how much the expression of older forms of religious thought, how much the appreciation of newly revealed truths. Finally, Wisdom 7:-22-8:1 gives the impression that wisdom is the "outpouring of God's glory", has a share in the divine nature, although the abstract terms used may equally well apply to a divine attribute as to a distinct personality. The doctrine of wisdom, thus outlined in the O.T., will be resumed in the N.T., which will give it new and decisive completion by applying it to the person of Christ. Jesus is referred to as Wisdom itself, the Wisdom of God, Matt:11:19, Luke 11:49, Matt 23:34-36; 1 Cor 1:24-3.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 6:45 PM By MarkF
Continued from the Jerusalem Bible, "Like Wisdom, he participates in the creation and preservation of the world, Col 1:16-17, and the protection of Israel, 1 Cor 10:4, Wisdom 10:17. Finally St. John in his prologue attributes the characteristics of creative Wisdom to the Word, and his gospel throughout represents Christ as the Wisdom of God, John 6:35. Hence Christian tradition from St. Justin onwards sees in the Wisdom of the O.T. the person of Christ himself. By 'accommodation' the liturgy applies Proverb 8:22 to the Virgin, collaborating with the Redeemer as Wisdom collaborates with the Creator." FINISH QUOTE. Back to the original point about Christ destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, the Mosaic books which were above all concerned with monotheism did not differentiate between the Creator, Redeemer and Spirit. But, in the later book of Wisdom, it is the Word of God (Christ) that is seen to be the Destroyer in at least the last plague that killed the firstborn of the Egyptians. Wisdom 18:14, "When peaceful silence lay over all, and night had run half of her swift course, down from the heavens, from the royal throne, leapt your all-powerful Word..." The language of this verse about the intervention of the Word into human affairs is later taken up to apply to the Nativity in the song "Silent Night." But the major point here is that Christ, the Wisdom of God, the Word of God is in the O.T., especially in the Wisdom books (Job, Proverbs, Wisdom, Sirach, etc.) Some of this may be why the Jews removed the books of Wisdom and Sirach and others. Look at this from Sirach 24:1, "Wisdom speaks her own praises, in the midst of her people she glorifies herself. She opens her mouth in the assembly of the Most High, she glorifies in herself in the presence of the Mighty One..." Wow! No wonder this would give the Jews of today a problem. This either violates the First Commandment or describes a distinct person of God separate from the Creator.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 8:28 PM By JLS
The thing about wasting words inspired by the Holy Spirit is that the truth is never wasted. Preach the Gospel in season and out. PA challenges the faithful to formulate truthful instructive and apologetic replies which may be read by many visitors to this site, which has about a hundredthousand hits per month ... some of course which would be from the same viewers. Ever notice in a classroom that one or two students will speak and thirty will keep quiet? St Thomas posed many challenges to the truth in question format so that he could answer them instructively. Same thing here.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 8:31 PM By JLS
Jesus is the Logos or Word of God, and as such is the author of the Law of Moses. Moses witnessed the burning bush, and heard the voice say "I am who am". Jesus told the religious leaders "Before Abraham was I am": Jesus is "I am who am", and thus it is not so correct to say that Jesus never spoke ill of sodomy. He condemned sodomy and those who practice it. And He continues to condemn such people, for He teaches us that not a jot nor a tittle shall be removed from the Law, from the Law that He inscribed on the Tablets known as the Ten Commandments.
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 8:33 PM By JLS
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by two angels of God. God is the Trinity, including Jesus. Is there somebody who thinks that Jesus objected and stayed on the sidelines?
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Posted Monday, October 05, 2009 9:48 PM By MarkF
Anne T., Jesus did talk about fornication in Mark 7:21, but you're very right about how he does not mention incest or a lot of other sins. I'm of the belief that when Jesus uses the term fornication that he's referring to all sexual contact outside of marriage, homosexual or heterosexual. I said that on here once before and someone came back with a quote from the catechism where it defined fornication in strictly heterosexual terms. While I respect the catechism a lot, I'm not convinced that Jesus used the term in the same way. Either way, you're so right that Jesus did not need to mention every conceivable sin as his audience, the Jews of Palestine, knew what is a sin and what is not a sin.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:27 AM By RR
I do know that Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity. I know we have a Trinitarian God. I know Christ is God. In order for Mark from PA to understand what my point was I had to change Christ to God. Then that way he couldn't twist my words and avoid my questions. Seems that he did anyway. Notice how this became a Bible issue instead of him answering my question? Mark from PA: Please answer this question. Be direct! Do you think two men having oral sex or committing sodomy, who are in a committed relationship according to you, are committing a sin? Answer only yes or no.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 4:34 AM By Mark from PA
Abeca Christian, so now I am not just a fruitcake and a fairy but I am spiritually blind and akin to swine? The Christian charity here is just amazing.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:02 AM By MarkF
RR, we have been through this MANY times before with him. If you persist in this line of questioning, you're into for about another ten days or so of asking the same question over and over again, each time only getting an infuriatingly disguised and deeply hostile answer that has nothing to do with what you've asked. Move on RR, move on. You're dealing with an extremely immature and unbalanced person who cannot fathom the amount of anger and distortion in him that's obvious to all. We can have plenty of discussions here without being drawn into this deliberate whirlpool of confusion. Just move on and ignore what he says. He does these little tricks like avoiding the question just to make you mad and drawn you into to his own drama. This is something that needs to be starved, not something that needs to be fed.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:25 AM By MarkF
JLS, in his book "God is Near Us", Pope Benedict talks about how God has continually moved closer to us. His starting point is Deut. 4:7, "What great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him." The ancient Israelites had the Law, which really was Christ but in, well, book form. In the Law, God has "drawn back the veil from the riddles of human life and replied to the obscure questionings of men of all ages: Where do we come from? Where are we going? What must we do?" But the Law is not a series of external rules to be obeyed, it is the life that animates the conscience. Deut. 30:14 says, "The word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it." There's so much more that can be written about how a Christian sees Christ and the Spirit throughout the O.T. As it's been said, "The O.T is revealed in the N.T and the N.T. is concealed in the O.T." This is one of the things that St. Paul called the mystery of faith, that so much has been given to us that was concealed from the great Patriarch and holy men of old.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:34 AM By Mark from PA
OK, RR, yes, but not any greater sin than unmarried opposite sex couples doing the same thing. I understand what you are saying, RR. Abeca Christian, now I understand why the priest that taught me in high school didn't have anything to do with me, he didn't want to cast his pearls before swine. Father "Perfect One" was too good for the likes of me in his opinion. He did not trust me.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:37 PM By Pat
I want to have children just so I can teach them about brave Americans like Harvey Milk and show them how narrow and mentally diseased so many people who claim to be religious are. When we celebrate Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, do we talk about how he had sex with his wife? Do we talk about the fact that he might have had sex with men? No, we focus on the work he did for people just as we should with Milk. Milk fought for rights for senior citizens, for laborers (Unions) and for people of color. Who did King fight for beside other blacks? And for you who use children in your cheap neo-conservative ways, remember, there are hundreds of thousands of children born gay. You don't really care about children; you only care about your ego.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:22 PM By Mark from PA
You have some very good posts there, Mark F. It is good that you are reading the Bible and trying to understand. I have been reading it for over 40 years now but as I have said, I tend to focus on the gospels, which I have read many times over. In regard to 10:02, who are you to call me unbalanced? For all we know, you have done a lot more unbalanced things than I have. I realize from what you write at times that you look down on me and consider me some kind of disordered subhuman and not worthy to talk to the straight people here. But some people here respect me and don't mind associating with me here.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:39 PM By JLS
PA, is using the old devilish trick of insisting that if Jesus did not clearly say it then it is doubtful. This is an implicit denial of Jesus Who guarantees the Church; it is an implicit denial of the papacy and of the Magisterium. It is a denial that St Paul was taught the Gospel while in the Third Heaven. It is also a denial by PA that the Church exists. He claims to be Catholic but does not profess the Catholic faith.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:44 PM By JLS
Pat, why are you exalting harvey milk to the status of a god? There is no one born gay, Pat. Your god is the father of lies. There is no comparison of harvey milk with Dr Martin Luther King. Milk was a corrupt perverse boy abusing sleaze bag of depraved intentions.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 4:22 PM By MarkF
Pat, so kids are "born gay?" OK. Go down to your local maternity ward and point out to me which newborn kids are gay. What you're proposing here is just a feel-good, political theory. And no one's buying it here. And what exactly are Harvey Milk's accomplishments? We've had thirty years of homosexual propaganda, and we've also had roughly thirty years of an epidemic of AIDS. And despite all the claims that AIDS will get into the general population, it has not. Yet there is no place in the world where AIDS is not a problem for the homosexual community. None. No place. Now we're seeing that AIDS is Africa is much more associated with male-male behavior than previously thought. (source: NY Times) How about the flood of sexual abuse of kids in our schools? Abuse that is male on male close to forty times higher given the small population of men with SSA. And now, the spiritual children of Harvey Milk have set their targets on all of America's school kids, under the trick of talking about bullying. What these potentially homosexual boys need is a strong male figure in the their lives, not to be told to prance around in a bikini. Your side are the child abusers, both physically and spiritually.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 5:45 PM By tedn
MarkF - Please go down to your local maternity ward and point out which newborn kids are left-handed. And while you are at it, point out which ones will be studious, which will be athletic, and which will be artistic.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:03 PM By JLS
PA, you are deceiving when you compare homosexual acts with acts between men and women. Men and women even if there are acts not open to procreation, nevertheless tend to get around to procreational activity ... men and men never do, and women and women never do. Your soul is hanging in jeopardy, PA. The more you receive Holy Communion in your state of mortal sin, the more condemnation you bring down on your own head. It is piling up, dude. At some point you'll be so callusced that you'll not be able to hear the voice of repentance.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:07 PM By JLS
PA, here is a perfect example of your disbelief in Catholicism: you say to MarkF, " For all we know, you have done a lot more unbalanced things than I have". Catholicism is the religion of turning from sin and being redeemed, restored ... Those who do not understand this are not Catholic, but only pretenders. Jesus redeems repentant sinners, and not unrepentant sinners. PA, you reveal yourself more and more as an unrepentant sinner, thus no Catholic at all. You're using the cover of Catholicism to mask your self exaltation above God and His Church.
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Posted Tuesday, October 06, 2009 9:12 PM By JLS
MarkF, you are indeed reading and studying some great Catholic material, and understanding it. My guess is that you are humbling yourself and praying a lot for such graces.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:13 AM By RR
Mark from PA: O.K. Finally you admitted that homosexual sex acts are sinful. So, why do you constantly support and condone homosexual acts, for example-Tomas and Aaron? When a homosexual who practices oral sex and sodomy posts something on here, why do you say beautiful or wonderful post? Do you not see that you are promoting and supporting their sins?
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 5:26 AM By RR
MarkF: I asked him Mark from PA this specific question and asked for a definite yes or no. I can't believe he finally admitted it was sinful. What I can't figure out is why then does he keep supporting homosexuals here? It's mind boggling. I guess all we can do is pray for him to stop doing this. I know, I know, it's frustrating, but I can't help but feel sorry for any lost soul. I just wish he would talk to a good traditional Catholic priest and not some liberal or homosexual priest who will tell him what he wants to hear. Unfortunately, that happens far too often in the Church today. Too many priests will tell you what you want to hear or avoid the issue and not preach against it off the altar. Sad!
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 9:19 AM By JLS
tedn, apparently you've never observed babies.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:06 AM By Mark from PA
RR, a lot of straight people practice oral sex and sodomy but I am not going to ask them about it because it is none of my business. What Tomas and Aaron do in private is none of my business. But have you listened to Aaron tell of their love for each other, a self-less, sharing love? Love is not a sin, RR. Again, I am not endorsing any sexual practices here, what I am endorsing is treating people with respect. Some people think it is a sin to call gay people names. Some people think it is a sin to beat up on gay people. Some people think gay bashing is a sin. These sins may very well be more serious sins than anything consenting couples do in bed.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:17 AM By Mark from PA
JLS, I just got back from Mass and I have read your post of 2:39 PM. Who are you to say that I deny Jesus? I received Our Lord in Holy Communion less than an hour ago so the Lord is in me. Who are you to say that I deny the Pope? And I deny that the Catholic Church exists!!!! I don't have to claim to be a Catholic, I am a baptized Catholic and an active, supporting member of my parish. I have never had any priest say such prejudiced things to me. I went to confession a week ago and I will tell you, sir, I got a lot more out of that than listening to your judgement. Who are you to judge people? Since when did insulting people become a virtue?
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:43 AM By Anna
Tedn, please go down to your local maternity ward and pick out which child is going to cheat on his/her spouse, which is going to steal from his/her parents or others for drugs, which ones are going to tell terrible lies about someone else, which one will be a mass murderer, etc. Practicing sodomy or having sex with both men and women or adultery are choices. Acts of sodomy, incest, etc. are in that category not the other catergories. We are not animals that we should just follow whatever temptations we have. As even many people on here who say they are homosexual will admit, certain parts of the body do not fit in other parts and were not meant to do so. If people chose to go againt nature, they suffer the consequences, yet they are some who are telling small children now that such things as fisting is all right if they use a condom. That is insane. I do not think I need to go into futher detail.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:02 PM By RR
Mark from PA: Tomas & Aaron have come on here and openly said that they are sexually intimate. That is mortally sinful. I do agree with you that it is also wrong when heterosexual couples engage in these homosexual acts also. It's just as sinful. Aaron and Tomas's love for each other is sexual, thus it is mortally sinful, selfish lust, NOT self-less, sharing love. They are using each other for their own selfish, sexual lusts. It is not love. You are right also that it is none of our business what they do in their bedroom, BUT it becomes our business when they come on here, a Catholic website, and try to get others to support them in their sexual sins. That is when it becomes our business. Gay people should be respected, not called names, not beat up, or made fun of, BUT that is not what we are doing here. We are telling them that what they are doing (oral sex & sodomy) are mortal sins. That is not hate, calling names, beating up, or making fun of. It's caring of two lost souls.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 2:36 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, the priest that I often go to for Confession encourages me to receive communion often. This priest has known me for 40 years. He surely knows better than you. He also told me once that God loved me just the way I am. You say I am unrepentant but how do I repent for things that I haven't actually done?
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:11 PM By MarkF
RR said, "I asked him Mark from PA this specific question and asked for a definite yes or no. I can't believe he finally admitted it was sinful." Well maybe you're not as cynical as I am about this game. I just sat back and waited for the inevitable other shoe to drop, which it did right on cue. You won't get a straight or honest answer from him. Ever. And JLS, I can't see how this is helping anyone at all. You're just feeding something here that is really unhealthy, and that I truly believe lives off of driving other people up the wall. If there's anything being illuminated here, it's that. Further dialog is feeding a vortex. Can you at least think about going cold turkey? I know it's hard but there is something to be learned in looking at all of this from a silent distance, believe me.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 3:32 PM By MarkF
JLS, I'm glad you like that stuff from the 1966 edition of the Jerusalem Bible. Mother Angelica recommended it and I got a copy off of eBay. I think it may be the first English translation of the Bible that the Church did that comes directly from the original languages and not from the Vulgate. What is so fantastic about this Bible are the notes, like the one I quoted. They take FOREVER to look up all the references but man, is it worth it to do so. The notes will take an idea and show how it's developed by citing all kinds of scripture. You can get lost with all the flipping back and forth, but when you come up for breath, the Bible really seems to be one unified book with all its parts perfectly fitted in together. But don't thank me, thank Mother Angelica. It was so cool that she got that award from the Pope the other day, after all she'd been through with the likes of Cardinal Mahoney.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:14 PM By JLS
PA, you have actually done quite a bit of sinful acts in your posts by advocating homosexual pride, and by denying that the Magisterium is true. These are not only mortal sins, but denying the Magisterium is an excommunicable sin ... making you a heretic.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:36 PM By JLS
MarkF, I took a course at Cath Univ in '85 from Fr. Francis Martin, a renowned Scripture scholar ... (no doubt retired by this time). It was a course on faith in the letters of St Paul, and it was a graduate seminary level course. There were a number of lay people in it including a Lutheran woman and some undergrad girls. Fr. Martin had worked on Bible translations for a long time. He told us that the Jerusalem Bible was an excellent translation. He also told us that the Catholic edition of the New Revised Standard was pretty good. My opinion is that St Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate Bible knew more about the earlier languages than anyone now knows about them. They were still in use in his time, at least to some extent. What do you see as the difference between the D-R New Testament and that of the Jerusalem Bible? One thing I have discovered is that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference as long as the translation to English conveys the meaning to some extent, enough at least so that further study can bring it into better clarity. Words tend to have various meanings, with an individual word having sometimes both a range and a variety of different unrelated definitions -- at least English does. The benefit of Church Latin is the "set in stone" nature of what it can mean. Mother Angelica is indeed a great Catholic and an exemplary soul ... probably be canonized sometime up the road a ways. One interesting translation is a work on just the Gospel of St Matthew; a scholar contends that it was originally written in Hebrew, and he has written a book arguing this point. I found this book to provide some amazing insights into the Gospel. He suggests that it was the earliest written, maybe earlier than the letters of St Paul. There would, in such case, be contention between this concept and the one which has the synoptic Gospels all stemming from the same pool of data.
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Posted Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:39 PM By JLS
MarkF, I will go cold turkey. The "vortex" image probably sums it up, and we find in the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches that it is not good to explore such vortexes.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:27 AM By tedn
JLS - Yes, in fact I have observed babies. Have you? Handedness, real defined handedness, isn't manifested for several months. We were very surprised when we realized our son was taking everything with his left hand. But it was several months before it was evident. Same thing with the intelligences.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 10:14 AM By MarkF
JLS, I think the same thing about St. Jerome. I just assume that he had better sources than are available today and that he knew the languages better too. One of the big myths of the modern world is that people who lived a long time ago were stupid. You know, how they thought the world was flat, thought that women didn't have souls, and wasted their time arguing about how many angels would fit on to the head of a pin. All of these things are modern myths about the past. The same thing applies to translations of the Bible. We're told how modern scholarship knows more about the ancient world than St. Jerome. Right. He only lived back then in the ancient world, so he must be an idiot. I have trouble with the Douay Reims because its language is often very hard to understand. The phrasing is often cumbersome. But at least it is free of "inclusive language" and calls Mary "full of grace." The Jerusalem Bible translation is kind of an idiosyncratic one. Where it differs is that they will freely re-order the words of a sentence to make it more readable. What makes the 1966 edition so great are the notes. The winds of change seem to have blown away all this in the later version that came out in the 1980's. Stick with somewhat hard to find 1966 edition.
The RSV is good
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 11:01 AM By Mark from PA
Yeah, yeah, JLS, fruitcake, fairy, heretic. Any more insults here? Who gave you the authorization to declare people heretics? Very presumptious of you. You accuse me of sin but what about the sin of labeling people that you look down on? I have seen another side of the Catholic faith here and I can truthfully tell you that it isn't very pretty.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 3:14 PM By Mark from PA
JLS, are you claiming divine powers to judge the state of a person's soul, even people you have not even met? While you are surely free to use insulting terms and make fun of people, calling someone a heretic truly crosses the line. It reflects a deeper hatred and a darkness of spirit.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 4:12 PM By JLS
So, tedn, you are in effect claiming that God creates some people whom He has written condemnations about? And you were saying about "intelligences"?
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 6:47 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F (10/6 - 10:02 AM) you call me immature. Yes I suppose compared to you I would be immature. I have never been drunk, never been high, I never had pre-maritial sex or extra-maritial sex. So I have missed out on a lot of life experiences so it seems. From what you have written, you have had a lot more life experience than me. So if you consider yourself more "mature" then fine, by many people's definitions you are. But I have one thing that you don't, Mark. For over 40 years I have shared in the Body and Blood of Christ. I have had Christ's gift of the Eucharist, every Sabbath and many times during the week also. Yes, Christ loves you as much as he does me and over the last 40 years he has been with you too. But you have stated that for many years you were away from the Church, so Christ was not part of you in this special way. But for these many years, Christ has been with me through the Eucharist.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:21 PM By JLS
MarkF, have you ever studied another language? It is not that difficult. I would recommend beginning with ancient Greek. Why? Because I believe what I heard from a one time retreat master for Blessed Teresa of Calcutta's sisters. He said the ancient Greek is the key to all the other languages. From there you can quickly get into Latin and any of the European languages. Also I would think it to make the middle eastern languages not too difficult to learn. Koine Greek not only was the language used in the earliest NT manuscripts, but was the trade language for that large region of the world which had commercial travelers from the east, north, south, etc. The Silk Road was up and running at that time ... eg the Seamless Garment worn by Jesus which the Roman soldiers gambled for. Greek might even tie into Sanskrit. Now, coming back to the present: Language translation is hardly ever word for word or syntax for syntax ... not even western european languages that are closely related. I hear a lot of Spanish and have realized that many identical words in that and English do not have the same meanings. There are languages where the meaning is different depending on the tone such as Chinese and old Danish. Listen to Danes and Bavarians talk ... even if in English and hear a kind of lyric or sing song aspect to it. When you study enough of this stuff, you can read almost any of it. Context is critical: How is some XXth century translator going to know the context of a 2000 year old extinct language? No way. St Jerome would know since he was of the same era ... Rome had become the capital of the world (All roads lead to Rome) and all the languages of trade and empire were available to him, along with the people who spoke them whether merchants or aristocrats. Most important and critical is the doctrines of the Church over the centuries which explain it all ... each was done in the context known at the time, and continually done so in Latin.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:37 PM By JLS
MarkF, there are countless language learning resources for you in the Wash DC area. Depends on how motivated you are. There are self study guides to Koine Greek NT, and there is Wheelock's Latin for learning Church Latin. I would go with the Greek first for reasons that you will see when you look into these texts. I do not know what the best Greek study guide is, but you can research it. Ancient Hebrew is my favorite because it was formed with a unique divine inspiration: Genesis One cannot be presented more "realistically" than in ancient Hebrew. BTW, early modern English is not so tough but takes a while to get the hang of ... well, I guess it was not a big deal for me since I studied German in high school and college. That is a language where you learn something about the "strange" syntax of earlier English But modern German has been morphing a lot, so I wouldn't look to it for any linguistic revelation about English. Try Beowolf and Chaucer: It is like reading poetry ... you kind of have to somehow get the hang of the implied syntax rules. And a lot of poets create syntax when they want to be tricky or ingenious. I once heard an anthropology professor say a few sentences in "Gururumba", one of countless languages of the New Guinea highlands, where he had lived for a couple years. It sounded like he was clearing his throat; but he had learned and transcribed that language with the help of his wife and two infant daughters. They moved into a village there only ten years after the "discovery" by the outside world of that region. Well, now I'm rambling. But you get the idea: Language is waiting to be learned. Babies learn it, even complex structures. A pre-nine year old child can learn as many languages as they are taught and they become fluent in each one. This may explain why so many Europeans know so many languages ... they learn them as young children, because they neighbor so many different nations.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 7:50 PM By MarkF
JLS, I've studied Russian a lot but that's not much help with Catholicism. I've started to study Latin a bit but am not too far with it. What did you mean about the seamless garment of Jesus? Was that something unknown to Israel? What's so special about it? I mean a poncho could be a seamless garment, just something with a hole in it thrown over the head.
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Posted Thursday, October 08, 2009 8:02 PM By MarkF
JLS, are you familiar with the little controversy about the protoevngelium in Genesis? It's one of the most frequently mentioned errors in the Vulgate. The serpent says to Eve (Gen 3:15) that "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed." It's the next line that is questioned. In the Douay Reims it reads, "...she shall crush thy head." All of the modern translations say HE shall crush the serpent's head. The problem comes down to whether the WHO'S feet are crushing the serpent's head. I looked at some Jewish Bibles and some say HIS feet (the Messiah's) shall do the crushing. Others say THEY shall bruise the serpent's head. Protestants have seized upon this as proof that the Vulgate is corrupt. Read the little note about this passage at the DRBO dot ORG site. They say that it doesn't matter because it is by Mary that the serpent is defeated. And the passage was addressed to Mary, not to Adam, though he was present.
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Posted Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:45 PM By Mark from PA
Mark F, you make fun of my "40 years of lousy catechesis" but I will match my last 40 years with yours any day. I have been listening to the gospel proclaimed these last 40 years and paying attention. Have you? But in these last 40 years in my parish, I have not been exposed to the hatred, yes hatred, that I have been exposed to here. The de-humanizing name calling is not indicative of Catholic values to me. But I did listen to Barack Obama's speech to the Human Rights Commission. I was inspired by how how spoke out against discrimination and hate crimes. Thanks be to God we will have a strong hate crime law to protect GLBT persons.
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Posted Monday, October 12, 2009 11:55 AM By Aaron P
Should schools stop teaching about Benjamin Franklin? He was a sexual deviant and was even a member of an underground sex group designed to manipulate women and participated in orgys... Personal life and professional life are two different things. I'm a college graduate and was never taught in school about BF's personal life or his "faults" i was taught he was an American hero that help founded our country. Milk was the first openly gay elected official who made some ground breaking progress for a discriminated group. In my history classes i was also taught that there is a separation of religion and state? Did i hear wrong? Religion should not fuel these decisions. I would never sign a bill taking away your right to freely practice what you believe... Stop doing that to others.
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Posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:35 AM By Adrian
Wow. Got to this article via Google News. Was expecting a bunch of lowbrow bigots, but wasn't prepared for some of the looney comments I see here. I grew up in S.F. I remember shouting at the "faggots" from the windows of the streetcar heading up Market St. on my way to school with my friends. It was so wrong, the plumbing didn't even match! Then I grew up. Now I see that truly the "content of one's character" is indeed more important than the way one talks, dances, or diddles. I must admit that the idea of me diddling like Mr. Milk is viscerally repugnant. That's because I'm not built that way, not oriented towards same-sex sex. I resolved that issue years ago. The bigots here who call themselves "Christians" might attempt to grow up and do the same. You people are poor excuses for adults, are behind the times, and in your next life will no doubt return as paraplegic Somalian lesbians with HIV who don't speak English just to experience the narrow-minded bullcrap that you subject those who are different than you to. Orange County, hah. You people live in Victorian times, and history will pass you by, as it gradually has other small-minded, absolutist bigots before you. Oh, go ahead and continue your rightwing Vatican fetishism, just do it in a closed room and don't subject the rest of society to your fear-mongering too much, please. As for Milk being a less-than-perfect human, I invite any of you cretins with a slightly open mind to review Mike's comment above: Way to go; now all we have to do is be certain to remove lessons about all historical figures who have led sordid lives that we don't wish our children to learn about: Benjamin Franklin, who fathered over 30 illegitimate children; Thomas Jefferson who had an affair with a slave and produced illegitimate offspring through her; Warren Hardings numerous affairs; Dwight Eisenhower's infamous extramarital affair; and the list goes on and on. Let's remove all these American figures, and limit instruction to tether-ball and hopscotch.
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Posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:02 PM By JLS
MarkF: Massoritic text: טו וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ: הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב. {ס} The Massoritic is the Jerusalem official Torah, and the Septu. is the Alexandrian official Torah: The Church uses the Sep. I like the Massor. better because its style seems more uniform, to me a more solidified tradition of composition. You can also find it in the Greek Septuigent. At some point it does not make a whole lot of difference in some cases because God knows about the difficulties of translations. The Church has put the Gospel into a system of Sacraments; if one uses the truth found in these, then one has little problem with translations. The Church has also developed the philosophy and theology to go with the Scriptures. Ie, She has developed logic and reason so that we can use our minds to understand. But a profligate cannot understand; the more one gives himself or herself to God, then the more one gains in understanding. Sorry my spelling may be off. The English translation of the Hebrew above has the seed of the woman as plural. I don't think it makes any difference. Why? Because Catholics are united with Jesus through the Eucharist; therefore, in this sense whether it is plural or singular is six to one half dozen to the other. Who is Jesus today? Does He not include the Church in His identity? The devil is being whomped all the time ... Let us make sure that we are doing the whomping ... and keep our heels out of his reach.
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Posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:03 PM By JLS
Aaron P., compared to Franklin, Milk is no more than a flick of snot.
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Posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:10 PM By JLS
Aaron P., let me add, just in the rare case that you're actually seeking some truth, that Franklin may have been a womanizer but he was not a homosexual. God reveals to us in countless Scripture verses that homosexuality is the end of the line for the sinner. It is the consequence of sin, the consequence of the number one sin, vanity. Homosexuals display vanity more than any other type of sinner. God shows us in Scripture that what angers Him most is idol worship and homosexuality ... much more so than even murder. Two thieves crucified next to Jesus: One retained his vanity and went to Hell; the other gave up his vanity and went to Heaven. It was not a problem of which specific sin they had committed, but whether they bowed before God.
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Posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:15 PM By JLS
Your problem, Adrian, is that your entire intellect is informed by yourself; the Church forms Her intellect by Divine Revelation. You worship yourself; we worship God.
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Posted Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:24 AM By MarkF
Adrian, it is YOU are spewing hatred and confusion on here. One, Ben Franklin did NOT sire thirty kids. He had one child out of wedlock. And Jefferson and Eisenhower actually did great things in their lives, flaws and all. This Milk character was a whiny, self-important, sleaze ball who faked an incident of vandalism at his store to play the martyr (always a favorite radical homosexual maneuver) and who started a movement that has lead to death of hundreds of thousands of people in this country alone. As for me and for many others in this country, you're not going to scare us with your neo-Stalinist tactics by saying that we are "against the people" as you construe them to be. Hysterical cries that we are bigoted may have used to work but not anymore. We, and increasingly the American people, are on to this tactic.
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Posted Wednesday, October 14, 2009 3:37 PM By JLS
The gay agenda is so blind to what it is bringing down on itself, that it cannot see its looming defeat.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:14 AM By Adrian
Yes, you are a hoot, JLS. You claim "God reveals to us in countless Scripture verses that homosexuality is the end of the line for the sinner." And "Your problem, Adrian, is that your entire intellect is informed by yourself; the Church forms Her intellect by Divine Revelation. You worship yourself; we worship God." According to who, exactly? You believe your book, and wear it on your sleeve, just as fundamentalists of every stripe do. If you were born elsewhere, or at another time, your "type" would slavishly conform to the mores and belief system your were born with, or much less likely, were exposed to and "born again" into later in life. You have no absolute lock on any truth, and it would be funny except loons such as yourself impose your "morality" on the rest of us. Fortunately, history, with many bumps in the road, has tended toward more freedom, more civil rights, and less oppression. Perhaps you would be more comfortable in an earlier time, say the Middle Ages? Or perhaps another contemporary culture, such as Wahhabi Saudi -- oh, but then you'd have to "switch teams". Your self-referencing blather reminds me of the quote "Personally it's not God I dislike, it's his fan club I can't stand." You don't know anything about love, clearly. You look at labels, as most people in the Church always have. A witch, an infidel, a Jew, a pagan, a lost soul--they all come from your immature need to externalize your fears. You will probably never have the capacity to judge each person on the planet solely on their individual character, on how much they, with all their faults and personal triumphs, hardships, and failures, manages to work and love. It's harder to see the world this way--it's nuanced and takes more work, it's messier. But it's more real, and less childish. I have known heterosexuals and homosexuals, and even a transsexual (horrors!). They are all flawed and failed and strong and successful to one degree or another. But their attributes have nothing to do
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:25 AM By JLS
Glad you find humor in my post, Adrian. The big problem you have yet to come to grips with is typical for our time. It is the question of who we are and who is God. There is no intellectually honest way to avoid the knowledge that we did not give existence to ourselves. But you tend to slide off into the fantasy that today's people are different from those of the past: Why not visit a graveyard and see if you can find a difference?
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:36 AM By Abeca Christian
Adrian get off your high horse, JLS is not a hoot.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:49 AM By tedn
JLS - MarkF had said that if homosexuality were an innate trait of a person, it would be visible at birth. I was merely pointing out that there are personal characteristics that are not evident at birth, but are seen later. "Handedness" and "which of the multiple intelligences" are not evident in the maternity ward. Thus, any challenge to "point out which babies will be ...." is not valid. That is all I was saying, no more, no less.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:34 AM By Mark from PA
"(Milk) started a movement that has lead to death of hundreds of thousands of people in this country alone." Are you kidding here? Thomas Jefferson was a great man and a great President but he also had children with Sally Hemmings, his slave mistress and also the half-sister of his deceased wife. So he wasn't any more perfect than Harvey Milk, who was surely an imperfect human being. But both men are respected for the good that they accomplished in their lives. Perhaps if some here could get rid of some of the hate in their hearts then maybe they would feel better about themselves.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:19 PM By Peter
Now, now, JLS. In all fairness, the same thing can be said of the church. The only difference is that the church is intentionally blind.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 3:11 PM By JLS
Simplifying down the reply to Adrian: Adrian's presupposition is that there is no beginning. He tries to shift the reader away from the bottom line, which is the eternity of God. He does this by saying that I claim that God revealed stuff, and then he imputes this to be an error. The error is in Adrian's false reasoning: It is common sense that man did not create the stars; this leads to the common sense that someone did. It can only be true that there is a "prime mover", which we commonly call "God". Adrian begins his craft by directing the reader away from this truth, so that he can ply the reader with the delusions of relativism. And then he trots out one after another of his phantasms, as they are called by philosophers. He presumes that there is no origin of anything, that we live in each moment and no other. This philosophy/religion was soundly defeated by St Augustine sixteen hundred years ago, and by many ever since. But when one denies the existence and authority of God, then one has only a limited number of ideas to use for reasoning, and they each have limited utility. The mistake of these modernists lay in trying to apply these limited artifices to eternal things. It cannot be done; as St Paul says, "Whatever we eat, whatever we drink, let us do all to the glory of Jesus Christ" -- any artifice is only valid insofar as it glorifies God. In an effort to keep the reader from discovering his deception, Adrian uses a lot of emotional attempts to cloak his error, to infuriate the reader so that the reader does not catch on to his sly craft. This is a look at modernism.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:04 PM By MarkF
Hear, hear! You hit on the head, JLS. What Adrian is for is the gospel of relativism, the new religion of compassion without truth. I don't have the words in me at the moment, but can anyone show me a person who has been saved by this new religion? Anyone whose heart has been healed by it. Adrian, the proof of the gospel is in the countless lives who have been healed by Jesus, including myself. And Adrian, you don't fool me with your distractions and comparisons. We are not talking about Jews or witches here, but homosexuality. If you want to propagandize for homosexuality, then do so on its own merits as you see them. Don't try the old bait and switch on me because it's not going to work.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:35 PM By JLS
Peter, you're confusing the Church with the faux church. The Church is guaranteed by God; the problem lies with the imitators, the "tares" which have been planted among the good seed.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:40 PM By JLS
tedn, I have always maintained that it is irrelevant whether there is a "gay" gene. The Law of God says homosexual behavior is a grave sin. There is no way to get around it.
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Posted Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:40 PM By JLS
Abeca, actually I can be a considerable hoot. I've had throngs of kids almost rolling on the floor laughing. That's the good news; they usually are laughing at me instead of with me, which is maybe not such good news. In fact just today I was blessed, when a former neighbor came over with his several years old baby. This baby has some really sad genetic issues. Mostly he held him facing away, while we talked, and was stroking his back affectionately. I brought out my hunting dog and did a brief demo that showed his excellent stage of discipline, response and performance. The neighbor was emotionally happy to see this, as he understands what it takes to produce it. Then for a moment he turned the baby and I saw the poor soul's shocking face ... but in that hard to look at face was a smile, a deep smile, a laughing smile that may be the finest I'll ever see. If God smiles at you, how long can you look before turning away?
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Posted Sunday, October 18, 2009 1:45 PM By Adrian
JLS, you snobby chump. You are intellectually delicate and dishonest. Your argument for Vatican Christianity comes down to: "We cannot have created ourselves, ergo Papal Christianity must explain the cosmos and its creation myth must be the Truth". Not Latter Day Saints cosmology, nor Scientology, nor Southern Baptist, nor Sufism, nor animism -- just the "faith" you happened to be born into. Ha ha, you are a shallow fraud, afraid of the possible Void, clinging to what vaguely feels good to take the chill of a possible future which you are terrified of. A more honest approach and an approach with more humility is to see the Catholic Church as a very human institution that in it's various forms and branches reaches toward the Divine that we hope is there, but which we just don't know. Right wing dingbat iterations of the Catholicism (heavily represented in both this comment section and Orange County generally) are little different than smug and clueless fundamentalist know-it-alls of all faiths. That would be you. Don't tell me God's will. You don't know God's will--you are just guessing. And your guesses suck, because they hurt people. Get out of their lives and let them live, bigot. Or be consistent with your own painfully-convoluted belief system, and live your own life according to Leviticus, or even St. Paul's many rules and regulations from way back when. You are entirely too self-congratulatory and presumtive. Btw, in case no one is letting you know, your prose is as smarmy and false as a Hallmark card.
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Posted Monday, October 19, 2009 7:34 PM By kathy
The Harvey Milk Day should be called "Harvey Milk was HOMO-genized" We do not need another day to glorify degenerates. It is so prevalent everyday. We need to uplift those who are good. Amen!!!
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